Misbehavin'

[DrSmellThis]

Fellow forum members, friends, and surfers (Damn, that sounds political!):

I've been contributing to this forum for a few years now, and have noticed a lot more maltreatment, insensitivity, pettiness, necessary post deletions; trolling, name-calling, bannings, bullying, and underhandedness on the forum in recent times (well before the switch as well). I am just getting around to saying something I could have a while back. I believe the forum used to have a bit higher quality conversations, personal interrelations, and information; and feel disappointed in the way the trend has developed. There is of course still a lot of first rate stuff, but it is less frequent, IMHO. I am not the only one who has noticed this.

Please pitch in to help the above things improve a bit. My sincere hope and request is that folks will take a private look in the mirror at their wonderful selves and make any necessary adjustments (and not just shaving their unibrows) based on whatever they learn. Hopefully, good sense will quickly prevail, and the forum will return to the outstanding board it once was, only better! It is still a great site!

Here is the obligatory, "wimpy disclaimer paragraph for sensitive, litigious types." Those with thick skin and no lawyer can skip it! ;) I'm not pointing fingers. Hey, feel free to assume it doesn't apply at all to you personally, in fact, if you are inclined to take things personally! :D This is not about any one side of any dispute; or any one group, philosophy, or politics, but is a general observation. I'd just prefer things would improve in general for all of us. None of this implies that I personally am above criticism in this regard (I remain open to feedback), or that I am complaining in particular about anything anyone said to me personally. I'm not the begrudging type (Think: Retriever. Well, not that nice. Maybe Schnauser.). If I'm being "too serious" or "naive"; because "the web is the web and people are people", or something, then OK I am. Lastly, of course I know no one died and made me the judge of good quality. But I play a judge on TV, and do know things used to be different. Overall there is a ton of good stuff in here. Whew, being nice is too much hard work! Let's just forget the whole thing! Just kidding.

Thanks in advance for listening. :)

[Bruce]

Doc et al,
Probably by "industry standards" we are one big warm fuzzy family, but yeah, there is always plenty of room to improve, and as forum admin, I would love to hear as many peoples' "2 cents" as possible. If you would feel more comfortable doing that privately, feel free to PM or email me or any of the other forum moderators.
Best Regards,
Bruce

[Ash]

I've been having a difficult time understanding some of your posts this weekend Doc. Let me see if I've got this one right. YOU want to be able to say anything YOU want to say without being challenged. Because if YOUR challenged then YOUR speech rights are being infringed upon. Does that pretty much sum it up? No? Go back and read some of your past posts and do some introspective work on your own self. When I read a post I also read the name of the poster. When I read your posts on subjects political I read words coming from a man that doesn't like to be challenged but he hasn't got the balls to do anything about it up front so he starts a Thread on a topic that's kinda, sorta related and very transparent.

This Forum, or any Forum for that matter, is a microcosm of the world we live in Doc. Reading your past posts it's obvious to me that you would like the world to be one great big "Can't we all just get along...kumbaya, politically correct" place, and that would be wonderful ! It could happen too if everybody thought like you Doc but everybody doesn't think like you. Sadly for you there are people that think like me. Get used to it Doc! Or start up a totalitarian state where you can put the unwashed, un-politically correct people like me away.

I've not been here as long as you Doc. Just at a year for me now. I haven't seen any changes in the way people interact since I've been here. Old Forum or New. Occasionally people write stupid things and occasionally people write insensitive things and when they do somebody usually jumps on them. If they have a valid argument they come back with a valid response. If they don't they usually run and hide only to return in another Thread with some other stupid or insensitive comment. I make my share of both and I make apologies when necessary. I've grown a lot in the year I've been here. It's the exchange of ideas and the input from other members that helps me grow. CJ is always helping me out with my political incorrectness and one of these days I'm sure some of her feedback will stick. Others, like SRH, don't have to say anything to me directly to help me grow. I just have to read their words.

The ugly Cortisol hour is now upon me so I'll end with this. We have a "Rep" system now Doc. Some of us have it turned on. We also have PM's and SMS's and lots of people willing to express their ideas without the use of calumny or duplicity.

[belgareth]

I've been posting to the forum for a couple years now. Before registering I spent weeks lurking and reading posts. There has been an ebb and flow to the quality of the posts as well as to the attitudes. Right now I’d say that the quality of posts is down, some of the best contributors have stopped posting. Also, cattiness and verbal abuse are up. It seems to go that way, as attitudes get bad, the serious posters go away.



I'll grant Ash's statement that this is to some degree a microcosm of the real world but there are many segments of the real world. What would be tolerated or even commonplace in one segement of society is unheard of in another. The idea that this is a public place and we should just accept all aspects of human behavior within this forum is absurd.



Every person should be able to post here without fear of being personally attacked for being lame or verbally abused because their opinion is different than someone else's. That isn't to say we shouldn't disagree, the whole idea is to discuss and debate while having fun. When a newbie sees how another newbie or even a long time member was attacked personally it makes them less likely to post. How many good contributors and contributions have we missed because a person didn’t want to be publicly humiliated? I see serious posts, often daily, that are, IMO, dumb, arrogant and outright pointless. Should I, in my infinite wisdom, be free to flame each one of them because they disagree with me or because I thought they were lame? Should I be able to take your serious post and drag it off track with jokes and off-color remarks and completely eliminate the possibility of a useful response?



This is one of, if not the best, forum going. There are a lot of bright, funny people on it sharing experiences in one of the most confusing and uncertain areas of our daily lives. I have learned an incredible amount from you people and would like to see it continue to be a high quality place to visit. It can only remain that way if we all adhere to some basic rules that should be obvious to all.

[jose]

When a forum member PM's me and says "No one likes me here." there's something wrong with this place. Now I'm all for debates, discussions and helping your fellow Phero users(and sometimes we stray off topics), but verbal abuse and making someone feel small should not be tolerated in the forums. This used to be such a great place to visit.

[Elana]

If annoys you, just use the ignore feature. It works like a charm. :)

[belgareth]

If annoys you, just use the ignore feature. It works like a charm. :)
The ignore function doesn't help in the forums, only PMs.

[Elana]

That's not true. If you put someone on ignore, you don't see their posts either. It's glorious :D

[belgareth]

That's not true. If you put someone on ignore, you don't see their posts either. It's glorious :D
It still doesn't eliminate them from being verbally abusive, it only hides it. Everybody else sees it.

[Elana]

If someone is annoying you, put them on ignore so you won't have to read their dumb posts and you won't respond to what you can't read.

[belgareth]

If someone is annoying you, put them on ignore so you won't have to read their dumb posts and you won't respond to what you can't read.
That's fine but it doesn't reduce the crappy way some of us treat others nor does it justify it. Whether you put somebody on ignore or not is irrelevent, they are still spreading their attitude problem throughout an otherwise good place.

[jose]

If someone is annoying you, put them on ignore so you won't have to read their dumb posts and you won't respond to what you can't read.

But why does it have to come to that point of ignoring someone? Pretty soon(if it's not already) those stupid comments will be condoned, then you'll have more people doing it because of the other guy. That's how flame board arguments start.

[Elana]

Huh? If I don't want to read a certain posters posts, I will put them on ignore. That is my choice. It shouldn't concern anyone else.

[jose]

Huh? If I don't want to read a certain posters posts, I will put them on ignore. That is my choice. It shouldn't concern anyone else.


I'm talking about everyone not you personally. Why does it have come to that point? You may wish to ignore the poster, but his rude attitude is still out there and exposed to other posters.

[Elana]

Don't know what to tell ya. This is a public forum and you get lots of different people with lots of different ideas and opinions and it will never be a ball of sunshine, love fest everyone hugging and kissing each other. If you have ever been to other forums you will note that this forum is WAY MORE flame free than others.

[belgareth]

I'm talking about everyone not you personally. Why does it have come to that point? You may wish to ignore the poster, but his rude attitude is still out there and exposed to other posters.Exactly! And if it is percieved as being condoned it will continue and worsen.

[jose]

Don't know what to tell ya. This is a public forum and you get lots of different people with lots of different ideas and opinions and it will never be a ball of sunshine, love fest everyone hugging and kissing each other. If you have ever been to other forums you will note that this forum is WAY MORE flame free than others.

I see your point Elana, but let's just not let it get out of hand around here.

[Elana]

All I can say is....if Tounge and I can make peace....anything is possible. :D :D :D

[oscar]

Don't know what to tell ya. This is a public forum and you get lots of different people with lots of different ideas and opinions and it will never be a ball of sunshine, love fest everyone hugging and kissing each other. If you have ever been to other forums you will note that this forum is WAY MORE flame free than others.Elana,

I DO know what to tell ya. First of all you're mistaken about this being a "public forum". It is a private forum, access to which is open to members of the public who are willing to comply with certain guidelines not the least of which are displaying civility to ALL their fellow posters and posting only material that is pertinent to the forum in which it appears.

To ALL,

As a member of this board since July 2001 and a reader of it for several months prior I can say that the changes in the forum that I've witnessed over nearly three years have been fairly drastic, and very few of them have been positive.

This is a forum about pheromones, and the forum headings that can be found below the forum titles outline the content of what is supposed to be posted there. I've seen the forum become virtually a "chat room" once, and even after another forum was created for such non-pheromone discussion the off topic banter has continued to pollute the forums that should remain devoted to specific ranges of topics.

There is no reason that a moderator's time should be spent deleting off topic posts from the pheromone forums when there are areas of the board where there are no limits on the topics posted.

I'm sick and tired of it. I agree wholeheartedly with the Doc's, bel's, jose's, and others' feelings that those of us who are in a position to do so should make every effort to take this forum back to where it was when it was an informative source of pheromone information.

Just the hijacking efforts on this thread alone delayed my posting for nearly 10 minutes as I deleted off topic posts.
I wonder how many more we'll have to delete to get the message across?

There are places to post relevant material and there are places to play.
They are clearly marked and those markings should be heeded by all.

Oscar

[Pancho1188]

Elana,

I DO know what to tell ya. First of all you're mistaken about this being a "public forum". It is a private forum, access to which is open to members of the public who are willing to comply with certain guidelines not the least of which are displaying civility to ALL their fellow posters and posting only material that is pertinent to the forum in which it appears.

As a member of this board since July 2001 and a reader of it for several months prior I can say that the changes in the forum that I've witnessed over nearly three years have been fairly drastic, and very few of them have been positive.

This is a forum about pheromones, and the forum headings that can be found below the forum titles outline the content of what is supposed to be posted there. I've seen the forum become virtually a "chat room" once, and even after another forum was created for such non-pheromone discussion the off topic banter has continued to pollute the forums that should remain devoted to specific ranges of topics.

There is no reason that a moderator's time should be spent deleting off topic posts from the pheromone forums when there are areas of the board where there are no limits on the topics posted.

I'm sick and tired of it. I agree wholeheartedly with the Doc's, bel's, jose's, and others' feelings that those of us who are in a position to do so should make every effort to take this forum back to where it was when it was an informative source of pheromone information.

Just the hijacking efforts on this thread alone delayed my posting for nearly 10 minutes as I deleted off topic posts.
I wonder how many more we'll have to delete to get the message across?

There are places to post relevant material and there are places to play.
They are clearly marked and those markings should be heeded by all.

OscarPoint taken...

...so now you raise a question regarding the new format...you can click on "new posts" to get the latest posts by forum members. This displays the newest posts...regardless of which forum it's on...so assuming that you only check out the posts and don't notice what forum it's on, how do you keep on topic and off topic separate? In the old forum, the differences were distinct and people just disregarded it if they could make a joke (I'm guilty).

However, now with the "new posts" option, I don't even know what forum I'm in half the time...and the topics vary so much and there's some pheromone and some non-pheromone stuff that I can't tell the difference. Descriptive titles help, as you could tell a pheromone post by something like "SOE Advice" and a non-one by something like "Memoirs of the Incredibly Stupid", but I find that the lines blur when someone makes a pheromone comment, which leads to a non-pheromone comment, which leads to a joke that may or may not be pheromone related, which leads to a hijacking, which leads to a post that requires movement to a different forum, which wastes moderators' time.

Since I am guilty of this more than anyone, I wanted to point this out for future reference.

I honestly believe that having both the pheromone and non-pheromone stuff has kept a lot of people on here longer than they would've normally...although it's also kept people from being on here as long as they might've...but speaking from personal experience, Bruce has made a lot more money off of me because I might've just bought the newbie pack and dismissed this stuff as "snake oil" had it not been that this forum existed and kept me on it.

I don't know what that last thought was supposed to say since any intelligent person would say, "That's why we have separate forums," but I thought I'd just throw it in there. I hope by pointing this "new post" matter out, it can help moderators by realizing a potential problem that mixes pheromone and non-pheromone discussions. In essence, it is just a chat room...a chat room with the occasional -mones questions. I think the place would be a lot quieter with only -mone related topics (i.e. I've seen all I really need for what I have...what else can someone tell me regarding AE, TE, SOE, and WAGG that will help me anymore than if I just experimented by myself?), but if that's the way it's supposed to be, so be it. Someone should write a code of conduct or something because the impression that I got when I first came here was that it was fun to joke around and it kept people on the forum having a good time until people had more -mone related questions. Now my posts are being deleted left and right...not that I've had many -mone related posts in a while (I wear TE and SOE every day, but I haven't had any "OMGIWANTYOURIGHTNOW" moments to write about)...

That, of course, is when people started getting nasty to others from what started as simple jokes or ideas, so I guess it has its potential problems.







I apologize for the following joke that I was making in reference to Adam Sandler's skit and making fun of the "$1.25" I was giving...I didn't mean for it to be referring to anyone else besides myself:


I don't know. That's just my $1.25...
Again, I hope nobody took it as an attack on anyone. If they did, I apologize.

[belgareth]

Point taken...

...so now you raise a question regarding the new format...you can click on "new posts" to get the latest posts by forum members. This displays the newest posts...regardless of which forum it's on...so assuming that you only check out the posts and don't notice what forum it's on, how do you keep on topic and off topic separate? In the old forum, the differences were distinct and people just disregarded it if they could make a joke (I'm guilty).

However, now with the "new posts" option, I don't even know what forum I'm in half the time...and the topics vary so much and there's some pheromone and some non-pheromone stuff that I can't tell the difference. Descriptive titles help, as you could tell a pheromone post by something like "SOE Advice" and a non-one by something like "Memoirs of the Incredibly Stupid", but I find that the lines blur when someone makes a pheromone comment, which leads to a non-pheromone comment, which leads to a joke that may or may not be pheromone related, which leads to a hijacking, which leads to a post that requires movement to a different forum, which wastes moderators' time.

Since I am guilty of this more than anyone, I wanted to point this out for future reference.

I honestly believe that having both the pheromone and non-pheromone stuff has kept a lot of people on here longer than they would've normally...although it's also kept people from being on here as long as they might've...but speaking from personal experience, Bruce has made a lot more money off of me because I might've just bought the newbie pack and dismissed this stuff as "snake oil" had it not been that this forum existed and kept me on it.

I don't know what that last thought was supposed to say since any intelligent person would say, "That's why we have separate forums," but I thought I'd just throw it in there. I hope by pointing this "new post" matter out, it can help moderators by realizing a potential problem that mixes pheromone and non-pheromone discussions. In essence, it is just a chat room...a chat room with the occasional -mones questions. I think the place would be a lot quieter with only -mone related topics (i.e. I've seen all I really need for what I have...what else can someone tell me regarding AE, TE, SOE, and WAGG that will help me anymore than if I just experimented by myself?), but if that's the way it's supposed to be, so be it. Someone should write a code of conduct or something because the impression that I got when I first came here was that it was fun to joke around and it kept people on the forum having a good time until people had more -mone related questions. Now my posts are being deleted left and right...not that I've had many -mone related posts in a while (I wear TE and SOE every day, but I haven't had any "OMGIWANTYOURIGHTNOW" moments to write about)...

That, of course, is when people started getting nasty to others from what started as simple jokes or ideas, so I guess it has its potential problems.

I don't know. That's just my $1.25 (Isn't that the same price your mother charges for a--------well, you know the rest, Tollbooth Willy).
Panco,

Points well taken, thanks for the constructive input.

Wouldn't the problem you described be greatly reduced if we all would cooperate and use the forums as intended? Bruce created the Open discussion and humor forums so people would have a place to play between serious posts. He was hoping we would all use it as intended.

As for the being rude and nasty to each other, there is no reason to allow it anywhere on the forum. The biggest problem is where to draw the line. If we want to be politically correct 100% of the time on all the forums, it will be a very boring place to be. But the schoolyard crap of ganging up on somebody just because some clique has decided they don't like that person is intolerable.

[Pancho1188]

Panco,

Points well taken, thanks for the constructive input.

Wouldn't the problem you described be greatly reduced if we all would cooperate and use the forums as intended? Bruce created the Open discussion and humor forums so people would have a place to play between serious posts. He was hoping we would all use it as intended.

As for the being rude and nasty to each other, there is no reason to allow it anywhere on the forum. The biggest problem is where to draw the line. If we want to be politically correct 100% of the time on all the forums, it will be a very boring place to be. But the schoolyard crap of ganging up on somebody just because some clique has decided they don't like that person is intolerable.
Well, the two solutions I'd think of for myself would be to post a new thread every time I wanted to make a pun or friendly joke about something...or to be given the option of choosing which forum I'd like my reply to be posted to when I submit a reply (in other words, reply to a post in the phero forum but then choose an option that posts it in the Humor or Open Discussion areas because I know it's off topic and I'd basically be doing the moderators' monotonous, tedious tasks of moving things from on topic to off topic forums).

It's just a lot easier to hit "reply" than to switch forums, post a new thread, and name it, "RE: Something funny about what _______ said about _____"

Or I could just quit being a smartass and shut up.

That could work, too... :o

[franki]

Frankly, I don't really see what the problem is. I agree the quality of the posts has gone down, but that's because we don't see many (semi-)scientific debates on here anymore.

But I don't think that is because Pancho, Elana or I are making frivolous posts... :rolleyes:

[franki]

My Question: Where are the people making informative posts about pheromones? All I read nowadays are ("stupid") newbie posts.. or reports from people I can hardly take serious..

No wonder people are trying to have a little fun here and there, otherwise it would get very boring..

[Elana]

When someone comes on the forum and asks a question, he is usually answered with a serious response. There is only a number of times you can tell someone the difference between a drop and a dab. But for the most part people ask questions and get answers here.

[oscar]

Pancho,

The "New Posts" feature lists the forums in which the new posts appear on the right side of the window.

Oscar :)

[oscar]

Elana,

The entirety of my post above was not meant to be aimed solely at you, and I've amended it to clear up that possible misinterpretation.

Oscar :)

[Elana]

Peace, Oscar...I'll do the same

[Pancho1188]

Pancho,

The "New Posts" feature lists the forums in which the new posts appear on the right side of the window.

Oscar :)
I've noticed this...I think what I was saying is that I don't pay attention to it...maybe they should break up the "new posts" area by section so it's more clear that you'd like for people to keep the type of posts separate by different forums.

This would just be a technicality, though. I've gotten into the mentality with the "new posts" option to treat all of the threads equally...like I can post whatever I want wherever I want. Maybe keeping the forums distinct would keep their...distinctness...ummm...did I just say the same thing twice? :o What I'm trying to say is mixing them up makes them prone to overlap. If you've noticed more irrelevant postings in the phero area, maybe (I couldn't be sure) it's partly attributed to that.


My Idea:

New Posts

Phero Discussion
"Newbie with SOE Question"
"Newbie with TE Question"
"How do I use AE to get my best friend to want me sexually?"
"Do pheromones go to Pancho's head? If so, how?"

Off Topic
"I am Cool"
"Everybody Loves Elana"
"Friends Sucks"
"Memoirs of the Incredibly Intelligent"
"Friends Rules"

Women's Forum
"Why are guys so stupid? Part II"
"How do I use PCC to get a man?"
"Why are guys so dumb?"
"How does AE/w Smell?"
"Why are guys so stupid? Part I"


It would keep your perspective that forums are different and must be treated differently...but that's just from my perspective because of how I see the "New Posts" option.

[Bruce]

Folks,

Several points:

1. Keep the feedback coming. I would like to come up with a long overdue policy statement. For the most part I think the long-time folks "get it" very well already, but an official statement might help new folks feel more secure. Anyway, now is the time to "bring it on"; call it an amnesty period or whatever. Nobody is going to get banned for what they say in this thread, nor should anyone feel like they will get roasted by other members in a PM for it either. So everybody, take a deep breath, blow out your 2 cents, and give the mods and I a little time to formulate the "rules".

2. OK, that leads nicely into the fact that Oscar brought up. Like it or not, the forum is indeed private. It is my living room. If someone comes into your home, starts jumping up and down on the sofa shouting "(insert your name here) is an asshole", you are going to show him/her the door or call the cops. On the other hand, it is not a prison. You are all guests in my home, and for various reasons, not entirely commercial I LIKE having you here, UNLESS, you make things unpleasent for other people. I would rather have 2 members who get along rather than 10 memebers, 8 of whom have formed a group of their own and decided for reasons of their own that they want the other 2 burned at the stake.

3. There is a big difference between throwing in a little "comic relief" and hijacking a serious thread. "Little" as in a single brief post. Unfortunately, that often if not almost always leads to a long stream of banter that is very entertaining for those folks who don't give a damn about the person (often a newbie) who started the thread and his/her interest in pheromones or anyone else who comes here mainly to learn about pheromones. *That* is jumping up and down on my sofa, and if my entertaining that sentiment makes me an asshole in your mind, then it is time for you to leave.

4. As has been oft pointed out, the "Off Topic" area was created as an alternative to banning large numbers of folks who come here primarily for reasons other than learning about pheromones or helping others learn about them. If there is some technical problem with the current forum application that makes it difficult to tell which forum is which, well, then we need to fix that. Wise ass comments "among friends" clearly have their place, but not in the middle of a serious discussion about pheromones and certainly not in one discussing the furture of the forum. I rarely if ever even look in the "Off Topic" area. It is an outlaw area in my mind. As long as it doesn't serve as a base of operations for the destruction of the rest of the forum, knock yourself out. I do look in the Humor section hoping to have a giggle and if I happen to be eating my lunch at the time and run into something so disgusting/disturbing that I lose my appetite, it is going to get deleted. If you have a problem with that, then, hey, just move on. The door is quite literaly over there. It is my home. I live here. I sleep here. I take my meals here. Yada yada, you get the idea, but for some reason I don't think I have ever gotten an email from a banned member who felt like I had the right to regulate the forum in any way.

Bruce

[franki]

New Posts

Phero Discussion
"Newbie with SOE Question"
"Newbie with TE Question"
"How do I use AE to get my best friend to want me sexually?"
"Do pheromones go to Pancho's head? If so, how?"

This is exactly the problem. The only posts we ever read on the pheromone forum are newbie posts. While helping out a newbie every now and then is OK and can be fun, at this point in time it gets boring because there no interesting pheromone threads anymore.. :(

[Bruce]

Franki,

Who would have the courage to stand up and post an "interesting pheromone thread" if they knew they were almost certain to get laughed at or worse if they fell short of the mark? Would you? Of course not. Only a newbie who has yet to learn what happens to those who dare to ask a serious question and don't quite meet the standards.

Bruce

[Pancho1188]

Franki,

Who would have the courage to stand up and post an "interesting pheromone thread" if they knew they were almost certain to get laughed at or worse if they fell short of the mark? Would you? Of course not. Only a newbie who has yet to learn what happens to those who dare to ask a serious question and don't quite meet the standards.

Bruce
Bruce has a point. The last time I asked an interesting question, and I'll be the first to admit it's been a long time, my thread was hijacked and we didn't really get to cover the topic. I remember remarking to someone that "you can't be serious on this forum unless you want to get criticized and humiliated"...which is actually what fueled my "Memoirs" postings because I wanted to be real and serious without worrying about being ridiculed.

Yeah, I'd have to say that Bruce has got me and everyone else on that one.

[franki]

You guys are probably right. I I look on the pheromone forum now, and scroll down to the first somewhat interesting thread I see: "Good Looks and Mones", I also see that one (for some reason) ended up in a pissing contest..

[belgareth]

You guys are probably right. I I look on the pheromone forum now, and scroll down to the first somewhat interesting thread I see: "Good Looks and Mones", I also see that one (for some reason) ended up in a pissing contest..
Exactly right and that's what we want to stop.

[Pancho1188]

Bruce has a point. The last time I asked an interesting question, and I'll be the first to admit it's been a long time, my thread was hijacked and we didn't really get to cover the topic. I remember remarking to someone that "you can't be serious on this forum unless you want to get criticized and humiliated"...which is actually what fueled my "Memoirs" postings because I wanted to be real and serious without worrying about being ridiculed.

Yeah, I'd have to say that Bruce has got me and everyone else on that one.
I have an example to support the mods and Bruce's claims even further with my "Memoirs" example. Now, even though it may be comparing apples and oranges (pheros vs. non-pheros), but I expected to get a lot of negative feedback when I posted that stuff. Somehow, though, no one did. However, an innocent joke by Elana led to comments by other people, which further led to mocking...now, had I not had my rule of not responding to things, it may have led to an argument/insult exchange. Imagine a newbie being mocked (I am thinking about Carlos as an example). When he thought he was being attacked, he got defensive and a "fight" almost broke out...

As much as I represent the antithesis of this argument because of my banter, I would have to agree with Bruce and the moderators...so help me and my future forum activity.

[franki]

Franki,

Who would have the courage to stand up and post an "interesting pheromone thread" if they knew they were almost certain to get laughed at or worse if they fell short of the mark? Would you? Of course not. Only a newbie who has yet to learn what happens to those who dare to ask a serious question and don't quite meet the standards.

Bruce Bruce, I like the way Bobby from Bdc Concepts participates on the forum and gives a bit of inside on the philosophy behind their pheromone product. We could use more of stuff like that to make it a real (interesting) pheromone forum, instead of a newbie forum. Where are the makers of WAGG and Chikara? Maybe we need a place where one can easily find all news articles about phero's in the media.

Just some feedback from me..

[Pancho1188]

Bruce, I like the way Bobby from Bdc Concepts participates on the forum and gives a bit of inside on the philosophy behind their pheromone product. We could use more of stuff like that to make it a real (interesting) pheromone forum, instead of a newbie forum. Where are the makers of WAGG and Chikara? Maybe we need a place where one can easily find all news articles about phero's in the media.

Just some feedback from me..
Do the 'inventors' do 'field tests'? If so, what were their results? Do they recommend dosages or combinations? That'd be cool to know.

[Bruce]

Thanks for giving my points a good looking at. Between Oscar and I we must have deleted some 25 off topic posts in the Looks and Mones thread and still it was a lost cause. Carlos had some issues and took offence to some stuff that wasn't really meant to be racist, but yeah it could have been better without the snide remarks.

And hey, Franki and Pancho, those are a couple of great thread ideas right there: "Do the inventors do field tests?" To be honest, a terribly embaressing one because very few do *scientific* studies, but an excellent (I'll say it again) excellent question worthy of a serious if albeit short ('cause there is embaressingly little to report).
and
"Where are the makers of these products?"
Again, a little embaressing, but hey, extremely valid point. Certainly a far more worthy post than tittering in the shadows about another "newbie" post. BTW, have you noticed the number of people identifying their threads as "newbie questions"? It might as well say "Please don't laugh at me or roast me; just skip on over this one if you hate newbies" and that is kind of sad.

As to where the makers are; a few of them make regular rounds keeping an eye out for questions they could answer.

Bruce

[Gossamer_2701]

I know that I haven't been here all that long... especially compared to many of you, but when I first found this board this mob mentality... ridiculing and ignoring those that posted stupid or inane questions was already quite common place. I had lurked for a few weeks reading the forums, getting to know how things and members 'worked' around here. Not wanting to come off like a total dumbass, I spent most of my time on here doing my homework... reading all the current posts, as well as reading through the archives which told me everything I needed to know before I ever even applied mones for the first time. I totally understand that this place exists, because of Bruce and his great business sense.... he created the forums to discuss mones... and help those less experienced learn how to use them to their fullest advantage. Granted, it may get boring and seem quite mundane answering the same questions over and over, but I also feel that its a small price to pay. I know I don't have many of the answers to the questions asked, but I do step in and try to help whenever I possibly can. We all should, and we should consider it a privilege to be a part of such an open and free forum!!!

That said..... I also find the mob mentality and personal attacks unaccepable! Voicing ones opinion is fine... and when one persons views are so wrong that everyone needs to voice their own opinions on just how wrong that one person is... well thats one thing... and the only time it should be accepted. One group of members, acting like a little gang of playground thugs, ganging up on another member just because one of the gang has a beef with them is unacceptable and shouln't be tollerated. And mean spirited personal attacks should NEVER be tollerated... period!!!

I am probably just as guilty as Pancho with my smartass jokes.... I find it more enjoyable to read these posts and the forum as a whole when I can smile and laugh, and I try to bring that to my fellow members. I also know when to keep things serious and on topic.... I personally learned a long time ago not to argue about two subjects.... politics and religion.... they are both personal points of view and no matter how much you argue your point, it won't change mine... so I don't try to change yours. But many threads have probably been hijacked because of one of my smarttass comments, and even though that one comment was all I contributed to that thread, someones question or discussion probably didn't get answered or discussed the way it should have.... for that I appologize. It was all in fun, and from now on I will pay closer attention to where I post those kinds of things.

I hope we can all come to a happy medium, work out all the little kinks, and move into a new age on the Love Scent Forums. I have met some pretty incredible people here (probably the whole reason I've stayed on the forum after learning how to use my mones) and I hope to meet many more now that Bruce has taken Love Scent to the next level.

Bruce, thank you for inviting me into your home, and making me feel like one of the family.

[DrSmellThis]

Thanks for the feedback, ash. You and I disagree about the value of "just everyone dogpile on the "fool"/"bitch"/whatever, call them abusive names, and/or take revenge behind their backs" approach. I don't think it's "lack of balls" as you say that keeps me from participating in that Jerry Springer BS. If I think I need to get in someone's face I do it. I honestly try to turn my reaction into helpful feedback for everyone if it seems to be a group issue; and be constructive, whether or not I succeed. I prefer that approach and will continue it. I'm not going to make it my problem if you don't understand it. My only responsibility there is to keep editing until I think the post is clear and makes sense, and I do spend a lot of time editing my stuff before I burden others with it. I think it's possible to have a forum without all that disrespect, that is still decidedly not PC. It used to be that way here, in fact. I'll own up to being too defensive when someone disagrees in a way that I believe is attacking, unconstructive, and irrational. I like respectful debate, and get unpleasant feelings when it's not. I work on that fault, and am well aware of it. You took my post personally and got very defensive too, which doesn't suprise me. It honestly wasn't aimed at you personally. But "if the shoe fits pick it up and wear it", as you apparently did.

I knew very well the kinds of responses I was going to get here, but felt I needed to make the post anyway. That's as much of my balls as you get to enjoy right now, ash.

Bruce made an important distinction about "a little bit of looseness and lightheartedness", which I support, versus thread hijacking, which is just disrespectful.

I actually was only complaing about the disrespectful stuff, whether blunt or indirect. It boggles my mind that someone could read that as wanting to squash harmless fun. I agree that if talk were always about pheromones it would get boring. I don't see anyone being prevented from taking about whatever they want on Bruce's forum if done sensibly. That doesn't mean hijacking just to fuck with somebody is OK.

[JustPeachy]

Imagine a newbie being mocked (I am thinking about Carlos as an example). When he thought he was being attacked, he got defensive and a "fight" almost broke out...


No, Pancho, that was NOT what was going on with Carlos. While he was posting newbie questions out on the forums, he was simultaneously PM'ing the female members half to death, trying to get pics and personal information. This is a prime example (but certainly not the only one!) of the blind men and the elephant phenom. You didn't see that, so he was a poor little innocent being picked on by the big bad schoolyard bullies.

Which brings me to the rest of my point. If the mods are going to act as censors, then this is going to be a very different kind of board than what I think you have in mind. I've seen posts I found personally offensive left up, but as was stated earlier, Oscar rips down whatever HE doesn't like. I'm not picking on Oscar in particular, but simply using an example already given here. I'm not even going to bother going into the details. It's just not worth it. It's up to me to decide what I will or won't read, what I will or won't take seriously, what does or doesn't amuse me at any given moment.

The problem is that we're travelling on an assumption that the mods in general have some psychic ability to determine what is or is not offensive enough to your entire audience to delete, what is or is not an ordinary conversational flow. So, taking keyboard firmly in hand, they slice and dice, and then complain that they have done it?? Someone used the word "schoolyard". But I didn't see anyone use the word "schoolmarm".

You could be reactive, or proactive. Did it ever occur to you guys that perhaps a better way to handle a general tone of conversation you may not favor might be to start some threads you do like? Present some real questions? Do some interesting experiments and studies and post your own reports? Discuss a paper you have read on the subject of pheromones? In other words, rather than taking a negative and punitive action - which generally only serves to annoy; take positive action intended to provide some positive leadership? I've only joined recently, but I did not find the place unfriendly. OTOH - I can spell fairly decently, and I wasn't trying to cyber with everyone on the board. (Which, BTW, became a joke on the public part of the forum that you probably didn't get because you were only a party to some of the backend exchanges with another poor "innocent".)

I get what you're saying, Bruce. But when your friend comes over and maybe has a couple too many beers and gets a little loud, the usual course of action is to humor him a little while putting the coffee on, because you already know he's a good guy when he sobers up a little.

[DZorro]

Thanks for giving my points a good looking at. Between Oscar and I we must have deleted some 25 off topic posts in the Looks and Mones thread and still it was a lost cause. Carlos had some issues and took offence to some stuff that wasn't really meant to be racist, but yeah it could have been better without the snide remarks.

And hey, Franki and Pancho, those are a couple of great thread ideas right there: "Do the inventors do field tests?" To be honest, a terribly embaressing one because very few do *scientific* studies, but an excellent (I'll say it again) excellent question worthy of a serious if albeit short ('cause there is embaressingly little to report).
and
"Where are the makers of these products?"
Again, a little embaressing, but hey, extremely valid point. Certainly a far more worthy post than tittering in the shadows about another "newbie" post. BTW, have you noticed the number of people identifying their threads as "newbie questions"? It might as well say "Please don't laugh at me or roast me; just skip on over this one if you hate newbies" and that is kind of sad.

As to where the makers are; a few of them make regular rounds keeping an eye out for questions they could answer.

Bruce

I guess we should not forget that at one point we all where newbies here.
So we should cut them a little slack, at the beginning i did not now much about phermones, and lot's of the regulars here helped me a great lot, and i am still learning stuff here everyday.

As for bruce it statement i sure hope it will not end up like that for the newbies.

But it will defanantly be more informative if we could get a report from the phermones makers it self, since these are the guys that invented the phermones, i would also like a sort of a report about TE/m, since that was one of my first product here i ever used, and since it's mostly used by newbies who first try phermones it would be benefitial for them aswell.




DZorro,

[DrSmellThis]

No, Pancho, that was NOT what was going on with Carlos. While he was posting newbie questions out on the forums, he was simultaneously PM'ing the female members half to death, trying to get pics and personal information. This is a prime example (but certainly not the only one!) of the blind men and the elephant phenom. You didn't see that, so he was a poor little innocent being picked on by the big bad schoolyard bullies.

Which brings me to the rest of my point. If the mods are going to act as censors, then this is going to be a very different kind of board than what I think you have in mind. I've seen posts I found personally offensive left up, but as was stated earlier, Oscar rips down whatever HE doesn't like. I'm not picking on Oscar in particular, but simply using an example already given here. I'm not even going to bother going into the details. It's just not worth it. It's up to me to decide what I will or won't read, what I will or won't take seriously, what does or doesn't amuse me at any given moment.

The problem is that we're travelling on an assumption that the mods in general have some psychic ability to determine what is or is not offensive enough to your entire audience to delete, what is or is not an ordinary conversational flow. So, taking keyboard firmly in hand, they slice and dice, and then complain that they have done it?? Someone used the word "schoolyard". But I didn't see anyone use the word "schoolmarm".

You could be reactive, or proactive. Did it ever occur to you guys that perhaps a better way to handle a general tone of conversation you may not favor might be to start some threads you do like? Present some real questions? Do some interesting experiments and studies and post your own reports? Discuss a paper you have read on the subject of pheromones? In other words, rather than taking a negative and punitive action - which generally only serves to annoy; take positive action intended to provide some positive leadership? I've only joined recently, but I did not find the place unfriendly. OTOH - I can spell fairly decently, and I wasn't trying to cyber with everyone on the board. (Which, BTW, became a joke on the public part of the forum that you probably didn't get because you were only a party to some of the backend exchanges with another poor "innocent".)

I get what you're saying, Bruce. But when your friend comes over and maybe has a couple too many beers and gets a little loud, the usual course of action is to humor him a little while putting the coffee on, because you already know he's a good guy when he sobers up a little.
If you have people acting like schoolchildren, you're going to have people taking on the role of schoolmarm.

If someone is PM'ing innapropriate or abusive stuff, deal with it directly. Let a mod know or call them on it, at least. No one is suggesting that is OK. If you dogpile publically instead, it's your own damn fault if it gets deleted. The schoolmarm needs to teach somebody that 2 wrongs don't make a right before she leaves for the day.

[CptKipling]

I don't have much new to add, but I just wanted to reiterate the importance of encouraging "interesting" pheromone discussion. It was good to see the BDC people posting, I hope they haven't gone too...



A lot of the stock newbie questions that get asked twice a week can get boring to answer. I remember helping with the Cookbook which, even as a work in progress, helped a lot of the newbies out. However, Nimbus has unfortunately left us, and the Cookbook is a bit outdated. Initially it was intended to be a collection of mixing knowledge, but I really think we need a "Starters Guide" section, containing a lot more of the stock newbie questions and start-up techniques etc. I started doing this when Nimbus resurfaced a while ago, so it wouldn't be a huge job to knock out a basic version if the consensus was that it would help.



Anyway, the point that I was aiming at with the previous paragraph (and missed entirely ;)) was that discussion would have a much better flow with a more obvious forum etiquette. Many other forums have very strict rules, I don't think we need to go that far, despite some of the hostility on here it's still a friendly place with a good group of people.



A note on the technical side of the forum:



-We need to have the search function fixed. We currently can't search for two or three letter words, which as Sod's law would have it is most of the useful content on the forum (SOE, TE etc.)



-We need a more obvious link to the reference material. There is one in the newbie thread but it's a lot less obvious than the old forum's link.

[a.k.a.]

I can easily ignore stupid opinions and mean spirited people; but hijacked threads are very frustrating. Sometimes I open up a thread with something to say, but by the time I’ve scrolled through all the insipid banter I figure, “What’s the point?”

[JustPeachy]

If you have people acting like schoolchildren, you're going to have people taking on the role of schoolmarm.

If someone is PM'ing innapropriate or abusive stuff, deal with it directly. Let a mod know or call them on it, at least. No one is suggesting that is OK. If you dogpile publically instead, it's your own damn fault if it gets deleted. The schoolmarm needs to teach somebody that 2 wrongs don't make a right before she leaves for the day.
I didn't think the PM's were abusive. They possibly wouldn't even have seemed inappropriate to someone else. I found it objectionable, as apparently did others. It WAS dealt with quite directly. And was quite efficient, apparently. You just didn't like it that way, which is pretty much too bad at this point, since it's all been said and done. You've missed the point that what appeared to be wrong to you might not have appeared so if you really knew what was going on - unless you did know, and thought it was all o.k.?? Two messages got passed: 1) If you screw around with people, they probably won't take very kindly to it; and 2) Message received, let's call an end to the hostilities now. I don't think a schoolmarm is really required, and they usually take the summers off anyway, don't they?

[Bruce]

CK,

I will see about getting those technical problems fixed.

Peachy,

From what I have seen you have been very helpful in the pheromone section and I appreciate that. This is also a time for saying whatever pent up "stuff" you have in mind, so fair play, but I review the deleted material personally as it remains visible to forum admins, and I don't think I have ever seen a deleted post that I wouldn't have deleted myself. I can only assume that your knowledge of all the "slicing and dicing" that goes on around here is based on heresay, and as for complaining about "having to do it", I personally wasted quite a bit of time "slicing and dicing" up this thread, just so I could follow what the heck was being discussed (ie: the future of the forum/home). You were apparently happy to see Carlos get banned and his thread deep sixed. If it wasn't for Oscar he would still be here asking for nude photos. Call us "school marms" if you want, but anarchy is not one of the options.

Your point about being more proactive is well-taken and just came up in discussion this morning. I guess we have been spoiled. There used to be an inner core of pheromone scientists hanging out on the forum who were constantly generating charts, FAQs, Cookbooks and on and on. Actually, you seem like the type to get involved with a little proactivity yourself, but the point here is to make the forum a safe and sane place where sensitive people could conceivably hang out without need of a flak jacket and helmet.

Finally, it is a fact that we do not keep any drugs or alcohol in our home. None of my family drink and even our wedding party was dry. And hey, guess what? We don't keep coffee in our home either (though I do drop by Starbucks for a latte once in a while), so it is lucky we don't entertain drunks. I guess that really makes me very boring even for a "school marm", doesn't it?

Bruce

[Pancho1188]

I didn't know about Carlos' antics. I was just trying to think of an example of a newbie getting into a fight. Even if it was his fault, how does that look to other potential members that a newbie got attacked? Yes, nobody knew the whole story but the people involved, but I could see other strangers looking and saying, "Wow, that guy got butchered...I'm not posting."

That being said, I apologize for the bad example. Next time, I'll think of a better one.

[Ash]

What, no cap for my name Doc? "ash"? I've been diss'd. I'm deeply offended. HAHA, not really. I was offended by Metro's Reagan posts though. Not personally offended but angry that he accused all those posting favorable comments about our Ex-Pres as being "Brainwashed". And, IMHO, his reference to Stalin was wayy over the top as was his Cartoon post (under the circumstances)but that's Metro and he has the right to say what he likes. I have a right to comment on it though and that's the part you don't get. You didn't get it in the Terrorist Thread, the Michael Moore Thread or the Reagan Thread. FREE SPEECH IS A TWO WAY STREET DOC!

This latest Thread of yours, following the Reagan Thread so closely, led me to believe it was a continuation of your thought process from previous posts and I still believe it was to a certain extant. After reading through ALL the replys to this Thread I can see now that there are bigger issues being discussed. My Bad for not seeing the whole picture before but I don't read ALL the Threads here and didn't realize that there was some "serious" bashing going on. I'm quite guilty of bashing on occasion. In the very recent past every time I bash it seems to be followed by you admonishing me for speaking my mind and rising to the defense of those that I've criticized even though their comments are, IMHO, totally indefensible. But that's COOL Doc, you've got the right to say whatever you want to me. That's FREE SPEECH DOC and I'm very cool with it.

Moving on to the "Bigger Issues". Respectfully directed at Bruce.

Way back last summer ****** deleted a reply I had made to a guy that had seriously offended me. It was my very first deletion and I got in touch with ****** to find out why he had pulled my post and not the post that had offended me. We exchanged a few PM's and the bottom line was he just didn't feel like it. Further probing by me through PM's with ******* reveled that there was no set of "Rules or Guidelines" for the Mod's. Whatever they felt like pulling got pulled. It sounded a bit like anarchy to me but as you pointed out it's your House Bruce. In one of your posts here you mention that having an expanded set of Rules might not be a bad idea for Forum members. I agree. Unless things have already been changed it would be nice if the Mod's had a set of rules to go by too.

Banning? How about a three strikes and your out rule? And, would amnesty be possible for Deb? Her being banned is all my fault actually. She got off to a bad start after reading some of my posts in the Terrorist T. Forgiveness is a wonderful thing Bruce and Deb really is a very sweet person and totally repentant. She just had a very bad week is all.

Icons? This may seem like a small thing but for me it's bigger than you might think. Many here already know that I'm a little strange. Some of what I write can easily be taken the wrong way. Icons go along way to help me "Express" what I'm really saying. The Icons on the new Forum SUCK!!!! They're seriously ugly and almost demonic looking, whereas my little friends at the Old Forum were sweet and very expressive. A post by the Webmaster told of how he was working for free. A statement that totally mystified me but whatever. I will personally pay him to change the Icons here out for the old icons Bruce! I especially miss my little buddy *D*..:D ..*sigh* :( SEE WHAT I MEAN? Also, I think the addition of a *puke* icon would be in very good taste along with an Old style ROFLMAO!

[Sexyredhead]

Speaking of icons, I frequent another forum that has a nice variety of emoticons. I'd be happy to PM you or the Webmaster the site, if you're interested in checking them out. I don't know if it's possible to add emoticons, but if so, those would be some nice ones to add. :)

If it's possible it would be nice to see the past several people at least that we've given repuation to, because some of us don't pass out rep points as often as others and we tend to get frustrated seeing that "you must pass more rep around" window. :o

I'm glad someone mentioned the reference material link. I've been looking for it but haven't been able to find it. If it was displayed more prominently, it might help newbies out as well as those of us who don't have perfect memories or are trying new products for the first time.

[Bruce]

Ash,

I am generally a sucker for a banned member who wants another chance, but we exchanged a few emails and she finally went off in a huff. Also, she was warned a couple of times about the same issue and each time promised to stop it, only to take it to a new level. Carlos wants back on too you know. Survey female forum members and see how they would feel about that.

The emoticons sound very do-able. SRH, PM Webmaster with the URL and I bet he'll fix us up with that.

B

[JustPeachy]

Peachy,
...
From what I have seen you have been very helpful in the pheromone section and I appreciate that. This is also a time for saying whatever pent up "stuff" you have in mind, so fair play, but I review the deleted material personally as it remains visible to forum admins, and I don't think I have ever seen a deleted post that I wouldn't have deleted myself. I can only assume that your knowledge of all the "slicing and dicing" that goes on around here is based on heresay, and as for complaining about "having to do it", I personally wasted quite a bit of time "slicing and dicing" up this thread, just so I could follow what the heck was being discussed (ie: the future of the forum/home). You were apparently happy to see Carlos get banned and his thread deep sixed. If it wasn't for Oscar he would still be here asking for nude photos. Call us "school marms" if you want, but anarchy is not one of the options.

Your point about being more proactive is well-taken and just came up in discussion this morning. I guess we have been spoiled. There used to be an inner core of pheromone scientists hanging out on the forum who were constantly generating charts, FAQs, Cookbooks and on and on. Actually, you seem like the type to get involved with a little proactivity yourself, but the point here is to make the forum a safe and sane place where sensitive people could conceivably hang out without need of a flak jacket and helmet.

Finally, it is a fact that we do not keep any drugs or alcohol in our home. None of my family drink and even our wedding party was dry. And hey, guess what? We don't keep coffee in our home either (though I do drop by Starbucks for a latte once in a while), so it is lucky we don't entertain drunks. I guess that really makes me very boring even for a "school marm", doesn't it?

Bruce
Actually, Bruce, I had no idea Carlos had gotten banned at all. I thought he had just taken a giant hint (about the size of Cincinnatti) and buzzed off. I am surprised to hear you hadn't already considered taking a proactive approach. I have had the impression that you, as you said earlier, aren't terribly inclined to take the draconian approach as a first option.

In any case, it is certainly true that I have made a number of drug and alcohol related cracks, even on this thread, as have others. Apparently, you have gotten some strange impression that I would somehow approve (or even instigate?) a drunken brawl in my own home! To the contrary, this would not blend well with either my athletic or my social pursuits in real life. The point was intended far more in a "Kumbaya" vein than "Miss Manners" (Although, I do believe that even she, dear lady, would have agreed with my example, however firmly she had planted toungue in cheek when doing so). I am genuinely sorry it came off otherwise. I can see why you might not appreciate the schoomarm references, just as I felt the nearly inescapable lure of zinging the writer of the schoolyard bully reference. Miss Peach blushes at her own lack of decorum. This peach has thick skin almost everywhere, except where it doesn't.

Do you see where I am heading here? We can clean up the language used, dispose of the declassé references, and make conciliatory gestures using all the very best netiquette. But an edge is an edge, however phrased, and whether or not every reader is even capable of discerning such. And that, rather than the manner of its deliverance, is the real problem at hand. It does no good to jump to either the extreme of an unchecked holocaust or a button-down ghost of true debate. Ironically, it may also not be such a good thing to take the middle of the road in some ways, unless we are very clear as to whether the matter is really one of mere style or of actual substance. Your call, certainly. I would only urge you to consider this thought as you formulate your forthcoming policies.

[Ash]

Thanks for your reply Bruce! Thanks for this Forum too and all the work you put in here. This turned out to be a very needed Thread I think and I can't tell you how much it pains me to write that. *smile icon from the Old Forum*. It's had a very positive effect on me. Hope I'm not the only one. I'm 50/50 on my Rep points from this Thread with a very nice PM from one of the truly Hot/COOL Babes here. Life is good! *D icon from the Old Forum*

[DrSmellThis]

For what it's worth on "non-PC debating", in case someone is interested in the topic, which is I think relevant:

The thread where Bobby from BDC first posted was a good example where debate happened without lines being crossed. Bobby's presence was really helpful to folks. I'm glad that conversation happened, even though not everyone agreed with me.

I personally have spent a lot of time, over 15 years, in academia, constantly surrounded by debates and debaters. I love good debates and will take on all comers quite comfortably if it's something I've thought a lot about. But there's a difference between debating and street brawling, or bathroom graffiti. Remember the show, Politically Incorrect, with Bill Maher? That was another example where people said controversial things and disagreed without verbal street brawling or disrespect (mostly). They kidded each other in off color ways. No harm, no foul.

But one thing I learned from academia is, if you're going to be really non-PC, (like Larry Bird saying the NBA needs more white people, or Rasheed saying African-Americans are exploited in the NBA) you have to be prepared to defend your position in a well thought out, rational way, all the way to the core; because people are going to come at you hard and fast. Just calling them names; making glib snappy comebacks; or attacking personally doesn't work in your favor. You will look like an idiot, frankly. They (those really good debater types) will pull the pillars out from under where you thought you stood.

If I knowingly have stated an opinion that is counter to the "prevailing view", I have already implicitly set the stage for a possible debate, unless I made clear that I only wanted to give a tentative, intuitive, or feeling-based opinion. And if I contine to push my opinion, or attempt to debate, it will be completely freaking irrelevant to say in my own defense, "well everyone's entitled to an opinion in our free country." Becase you're not just expressing your opinion in that case, you're also saying or at least implying it is a valid and sound opinion, and that it is moreso than someone else's. Otherwise you would just respectfully state it, leave it at being just your opinion, be clear about that, and then spend the rest of your time showing respect to others' opinions. So you're already coming off as making no sense saying that-- the worst possible defeat for a debater, by all standards.

No one will arrest you. That's exactly how far "I have a right to my opinion in this free country" gets you in a debate. But thoughtful folks won't respect you intellectually or modify their beliefs (or necessarily keep you as a member in their forum). Who cares about that? Well, aside from wanting to earn intellectual respect, if you enter into actual debate, you are implicitly agreeing to modify your own beliefs if the other person wins deservedly, or "demonstrates rational superiority," as they say. (It's like science and falsifiability.) Otherwise you wouldn't be making arguments at all. Someone who doesn't demonstrate that spirit (e.g., by finding another's point truly interesting, or acknowledging various changes in their position. Both techniques were well demonstrated by Bobby in that thread.) comes off as a hypocrite, time-waster, masturbater, and fool, frankly. They can fairly expect to be treated as if they are coming off in that way -- with personal respect, of course.

The good news is that knowing all this makes one a better debater. Because even if one can't see the need to modify his or her thinking, one can always use their humility to say "I need to think about that more;" or say that there are "unanswered questions", or "unclear" places, or "this is the part I still don't understand" for example; without looking at all foolish, even if they aren't the best debaters. Another option is to take Maher's approach and kid people harmlessly. Still another that works just fine is to just state it's an opinion and leave it at that, though this feels limiting for many folks. A fourth option, then, is to work on one's skills. Of course, I'm not suggesting anyone has to debate skillfully. I am sharing that this is what I learned happens, through having been "beat up" in various debates. The above can be taken as "debate survival tips".

If I state a controversial opinion, then, I know to expect people to come at me tenaciously, pointing out potential problems with my rational thinking, all the way to the core. I am not going to think they are disrespecting my rights to free speech, or think I don't have such rights in their eyes. However, if they try to brawl instead, spout graffiti, or show disrespect, they have instead lost, if I have used my debate survival skills.

[DrSmellThis]

Thanks for your reply Bruce! Thanks for this Forum too and all the work you put in here. This turned out to be a very needed Thread I think and I can't tell you how much it pains me to write that. *smile icon from the Old Forum*. It's had a very positive effect on me. Hope I'm not the only one. I'm 50/50 on my Rep points from this Thread with a very nice PM from one of the truly Hot/COOL Babes here. Life is good! *D icon from the Old Forum*:eek: :)
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[Watcher]

This thread has been very informative - a user agreement sounds like a good idea - set out what and will not be accepted etc.

People should make greater use of the reputation aspects of the forum - keeping it on topic in the pheromone discussion area is a good idea and all off topic in off topic.

I have been on and off recently - not as much as i used to be but being here since 2000 or 2001 i think the longer term members have an idea of what is good and what is bad.

[DrSmellThis]

BTW, I'd like to thank Pancho for bumping some of his excellent posts.

[InternationalPlayboy]

Wow. I read mainly the Pheromone Discussions thread, so I didn't know there was so much controversy going on. I just noticed that several frequent posters had been banned and was trying to find out what happened.

The first forum I ever frequented was the Deepak Chopra forum hosted by Random House. I found it around 1999 and became a regular participant. I loved the anarchy about the place. Anything and everything was discussed, there were no moderators.

It was great... for a few months. Then a battle of egos started. Interesting when part of Eastern philosophy is to rid yourself of your ego. There was one person who I will call "the Messiah," as he has had some sort of "awakening" and first went to Chopra's forum to discuss it as he thought he was losing his mind.

The other instigator was someone I'll call "the Cynic." This guy took a deep loathing to the Messiah, and started to flame him every time he posted. By the time the USA was gearing up for war with Iraq, the Messiah, who is a Brit, started posting anti war/Bush stuff. The Cynic would retaliate with just posting extremely high resolution photos and cut and paste text from other forums, making it impossible for anyone to read it as it took too long to load.

A third participant, whom I'll refer to as "the Vagabond," would echo the Messiah's opinions, which also brought the Cynic's wrath upon him and was treated with the same abuse that the Messiah was.

When the Cynic first came onto the scene, one woman who was offended, created a private chatroom with Spiritweb as a safe place to play. I was a member of this group, along with the Messiah and the Vagabond. Spiritweb eventually dropped their chatroom function so the Vagabond started a private chat area on his website.

Well, I got blasted at the private chatroom for telling the Messiah and the Vagabond at Chopra's that they were just as guilty as the Cynic for bringing Chopra's forum down. They knew if they posted anything political on the forum, the Cynic would retaliate with garbage, rendering the forum usless for everyone. Yet they would continue to do so. Instead of seeing it as the pissing match it was, they were comparing their web presence to marching to free Nelson Mandela.

The Messiah and Vagabond and a few supporters contacted Random House about the Cynic's abuse, which ended up with the forum closing, to be replaced with a (supposedly) moderated forum. The flaming continued for a bit, until the Cynic finally got banned. But the new place is just a shell of what once was. There is virtually no discussion on Deepak Chopra and his works there anymore. It's still mainly the Messiah's critisim of the U.S., it's governors and it's policies.

I no longer participate there. I go back occasionally to look, but just don't feel like inputing there anymore. After being dogpiled on at the Vagabond's chatroom, I lost all urge to post there too, and cut my visits down to once a week, then once a month, then to every few months when I remembered the place. It turned into the Messiah fan club. Finally, sometime around last Thanksgiving, I found that they had changed the password, locking me out.

A friend from the Chopra and Spiritweb sites told me about the Straight Dope Message Board, and I got hooked on that. It's moderated, something I thought I wouldn't like, but it turned out I did. It kept the Cynic, Vagabond, and Messiah types away. Trouble with that board is that there is so much to read there I waste too much time. They also recently went to a fee based membership, so I think they are going to lose a lot of good input. I did sign up as a "charter member" as I thought $5/year was a lot better that the regular price of around $20.

I had peeked into this forum a couple of times but didn't participate until I bought WAGG through a Wacky Wednesday special. With all the new products in the last few months, I've since become obsessed with mones and enjoy the forum here. Though I still like the anarchy of the Internet, I appreciate the moderators here and the job they do. This a great place. I particularly like the fact that Bruce, JVK and the guys from BDC concepts are posting here.

I like this place and Bruce has every right to run it the way he feel it should be run. After all, he is using his own money to keep it running. It's not like we pay to post here.

I can remember a poster at the second incarnation of the Chopra forum threatening to sue because they blocked his cartoonish picture of President Bush. He claimed that the moderators were supressing his freedom of speech. He could not see the logic when I pointed out that Crown Publishing was hosting the site and we had to play by their rules. It was still a free speech issue to him.

Now I'm an anarchist at heart, but I believe there is a personal responsability to individual rights that goes along with anarchy. There should be no laws, other than laws against initiatory force against others. In other words, I believe in your right to swing your arms around wildly, but that right ends when your fist comes in contact with my nose.

Looks like some here made contact with the forum's nose.

Anyway, I hope I made some sense in this rambling post. I just wanted to relate my bad experiences with other forums and to support Bruce and the moderators' decisions to run this place as they see fit to do so.

[DrSmellThis]

Nice anecdote, IP.

For "whatever reasons," things are starting to get very significantly better around here again, with quality posts clearly on the rise, and respect being shown even where there is disagreement! I don't think I'm imagining things. :think:

My sincere thanks go out to the many of you who have chipped in to restore the Phero Forum to its previous level of quality! This is looking to have been a remarkable success story. Indeed, at present I no longer even have the complaint I had when I started this thread two weeks ago! The energy just seems very different. I am pleasantly suprised! Good sense has prevailed.

Peace, Love and Kumbaya! :drunk:

[belgareth]

Nice anecdote, IP.

For "whatever reasons," things are starting to get very significantly better around here again, with quality posts clearly on the rise, and respect being shown even where there is disagreement! I don't think I'm imagining things. :think:

My sincere thanks go out to the many of you who have chipped in to restore the Phero Forum to its previous level of quality! This is looking to have been a remarkable success story. Indeed, at present I no longer even have the complaint I had when I started this thread two weeks ago! The energy just seems very different. I am pleasantly suprised! Good sense has prevailed.

Peace, Love and Kumbaya! :drunk:
I'll second that. It's surprising what a few bad actors can do to mess up something basically good. Thanks to all of you who have started posting great stuff on the forum.

[Bruce]

Doc and other fellow forum folks,

I concur. It was a tough decision, but honest to God feel I had no alternative. Use whatever metaphor you want, it wasn't exactly a fun job and there was nobody running out of his house to spread rose petals at my feet, but the science crowd is returning from exhile and the power vaccuum is gradualy filling. Once again, I myself feel comfortable posting without fear of being flamed by the "the cartel". I can walk around with my head up in my own home. I'm getting my forum back and my life as well. Thank you all very much!

Gang, I was a little nervous when I saw this thread reactivate. Although, I am glad to see what did get posted, I am going to close the thread down now. I just want to move on and forget the past; rebuild the forum into the peaceful intelligent home that it once was. I still intend to post some sort of "rules" as has been requested. In the mean time how about "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? Maybe that can get us by in the mean time. If you really feel like you have to say something negative, send it to me privately. Make it thoughtful and I will respond as best I can.

Love, hugs, kisses, beads, bells, incense, Hari Krsna and praise the Lord,
Bruce