Disaster relief help

[belgareth]

Everybody!

We all know that the south coast really caught it this week. There are a bunch of groups and clubs trying to help out either through direct work or by collecting donations. I am urging anybody who can help in any way to please do so. You can give through the Salvation Army, the Red Cross, Rotary clubs, Kiwanas and so on. Anything you can contribute to the folks whose homes were destroyed will be a big help to them. Many of them are left with no more than the clothes on their backs.

Thanks,

Belgareth

[NaughtieGirl]

Everybody!

We all know that the south coast really caught it this week. There are a bunch of groups and clubs trying to help out either through direct work or by collecting donations. I am urging anybody who can help in any way to please do so. You can give through the Salvation Army, the Red Cross, Rotary clubs, Kiwanas and so on. Anything you can contribute to the folks whose homes were destroyed will be a big help to them. Many of them are left with no more than the clothes on their backs.

Thanks,

Belgareth

I just got off the phone with my local Rotary Club. Although we had a very pleasant chat, they are unfortunately not beyond "Yes we'll discuss it at the meeting later this week"!

Meanwhile, they referred me to the Salvation Army and I like their website.They even have an emergency radio network, so people can enquire about their loved ones in the area.

[DrSmellThis]

The Red Cross seems to be the most recommended donee, from what I've seen. Hopefully they will be efficient and organized with our money. I think everyone who works for them is a volunteer. Here's the donation page:

www.redcross.org (http://www.redcross.org/)

[belgareth]

The Red Cross does a great job but I'm not so sure about all volunteers with them. Also, the local service clubs like the one Naughtie mentioned are doing a lot. The one I am familiar with locally has a goal of donating $100,000 through its members as well as sending some workers. I can guarantee that they are all volunteers who even usually pay for their own food and travel.

Whatever you do, whatever you can do will help as these poor people have literally nothing.

[Mtnjim]

Unfortunately, a lot of lawlessness and looting has broken out.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/30/katrina.neworleans/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/30/katrina.neworleans/index.html)



There are reports that a lot of gun stores have been broken into and cleaned out. And there have been reports of police taking part in the looting.



Truly sad!!

[Netghost56]

Man, things are getting bad now. I have a cousin who was working as a chef in N.O. I guess if anything has happened to him I'll get a call from my father (his uncle).

I give it 24 hours before there are widespread riots in N.O. Three days without food/water? Blood will be shed. You can already see people hurling obscenities at their National Guard and cops who ignore them.

Gas has jumped as much as $3 in Georgia! $6 a gallon! They say the price will rise up over $4 nationwide in the next three weeks!

I guess by mid-September all heck will break lose.

[NaughtieGirl]

Man, things are getting bad now. I have a cousin who was working as a chef in N.O. I guess if anything has happened to him I'll get a call from my father (his uncle).

I give it 24 hours before there are widespread riots in N.O. Three days without food/water? Blood will be shed. You can already see people hurling obscenities at their National Guard and cops who ignore them.

Gas has jumped as much as $3 in Georgia! $6 a gallon! They say the price will rise up over $4 nationwide in the next three weeks!

I guess by mid-September all heck will break lose.

I have to have faith in the "might" of the US. If we really make it a priority, think of the resources this country has.

I watched on TV some relief trucks distributing personal care baggies. People were calm and collected. Maybe the media are playing some of this stuff up?

Then again, been too busy working to watch the news for the past few hours. Maybe the situation has evolved?

[NaughtieGirl]

I'm feeling more and more perturbed. Some of those people have been without shelter and supplies for 3 and a half days now.

Why can't they send military planes from unaffected airforce bases and have them drop food and camping supplies in some of the cut-off rural areas? I've seen them do it in third world countries.

Bush is being his usual slow-poke self, if you ask me.

[bjf]

I'm feeling more and more perturbed. Some of those people have been without shelter and supplies for 3 and a half days now.

Why can't they send military planes from unaffected airforce bases and have them drop food and camping supplies in some of the cut-off rural areas? I've seen them do it in third world countries.

Bush is being his usual slow-poke self, if you ask me.

I competely agree!

[belgareth]

I know it's frustrating but try to understand the dynamics of sending that many people in. Just their transport takes time to arrange. Then you have all the other logistic issues to deal with like food, sleeping arrangements and sanitation. Just dumping 10,000 people in there with no support base would make matters worse. Below is an article that answers some of the questions.

By Charles Aldinger



WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The military is increasing the National Guard force on the storm-ravaged Gulf coast to 30,000 and 3,000 regular Army soldiers may be sent to help end lawlessness in New Orleans, officials said on Thursday.

The moves would bring to nearly 50,000 the number of part-time Guard and active-duty military personnel committed to the biggest domestic relief effort in U.S. history after Monday's onslaught by killer Hurricane Katrina.

The Navy said it was sending the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Harry S. Truman to join an armada of vessels off the coast of the Gulf of Mexico. The Air Force said it was adding a high-flying U-2 spy plane to the relief effort to take pictures to help relief efforts at the request of the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

The Army has put on alert roughly 3,000 active-duty ground troops from Fort Bragg, North Carolina, to be prepared to deploy to New Orleans to help bring security to the flooded city amid looting and lawlessness, said an Army official, who asked not to be named.

The brigade-sized force, likely to be from the 82nd Airborne Division, would engage in crowd control and site-protection activities, the official said.

U.S. law bars active-duty military troops from engaging in domestic law enforcement, but the Army official said crowd control and site-protection were not defined as law enforcement activities.

The official said another 240 troops from the Army's 4th Infantry Division at Fort Hood, Texas, also were going to the region.

Meanwhile, the number of National Guard troops in Louisiana and Mississippi will grow to 12,000 in each state in the next three days. Another 6,000 in Alabama and Florida will bring the total in the devastated area to 30,000, according to Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita.

"It is a trying situation at best," Army Lt. Gen. Russel Honore, commander of the military effort in the Gulf coast area, told Pentagon reporters from Gulfport, Mississippi, which was devastated by the hurricane.

Honore said the Guard troops were under command of the governors of the four states and that "rules of engagement" on how to crack down on looters and other lawbreakers would be set by the states, not the Pentagon.

Most of the nearly 15,000 active-duty personnel committed to the relief effort so far are Navy, including about 5,000 aboard the aircraft carrier.

Pentagon officials had said on Wednesday the number of National Guard troops under the command of state governors would reach 21,000 by the end of Friday. Now the number will top 30,000 in the next few days, mostly in Louisiana and Mississippi.

The troops will assist in controlling lawlessness and providing aid, and many going to Louisiana will be military police, officials said.

The Truman would provide a major naval command post in the Gulf of Mexico, helping coordinate the actions of nearly a dozen other warships and supply vessels, including two Navy helicopter assault ships.

The Navy dock landing ship USS Whidbey Island also is leaving Norfolk to join the relief effort, the Navy said. Whidbey Island will bring the capability to employ a movable causeway to the region. Many bridges were destroyed when Hurricane Katrina hit the region on Monday.

The military hospital ship Comfort is scheduled to depart Baltimore in the coming days to provide an offshore floating medical center with 12 operating rooms and up to 1,000 beds.

The Truman is capable of carrying more than 80 aircraft, including large helicopters. The Navy said it would carry additional helicopters from Naval Air Station Jacksonville in Florida to support search-and-rescue efforts.

Dozens of helicopters are also being used to help rescue trapped citizens in flooded New Orleans and provide food, water and other relief for destroyed coastal areas.

[NaughtieGirl]

I agree it looks like an utterly daunting task. But note how every sentence uses the future tense. And, granted, these things take some time to mobilize.

My thoughts were: In the meanwhile - drop some food, water, tarps, tents etc. from the air and people will set up their own shelters (before they become too dehydrated to do so). Just give them some means to help themselves while the National Guard concentrates on search and rescue and maintaining order.

I've seen some very heartwarming reports of regular people rescuing others, but something needs to be done before tempers start flaring up.

[Netghost56]

(creeps forward) The government would have money and resources to send if we weren't in Iraq! (runs away)

[belgareth]

It does say there are already 15,000 people involved in the rescue efforts, admittedly 5,000 are on the aircraft carrier but that is a good base for operations too. They also say that dozens of helicopters are already in use in New Orleans rescuing people.

Agreed that the food, water, tarps, tents etc would be a big help but they've got to come from somewhere. That means obtaining transport, loading them on the transport and dispersing them to delivery vehicles once they get on site. Where are the needed materials? There are no central records to rely on. What transport are you going to use from each storage location? Where will that transport come from and how long will it take to get there, get loaded and make it to the affected area? Do we pull choppers from the rescue effort to do that? How else do we disperse them? Where do we drop them? Does anybody know where the needs are the greatest?

I've been involved in the logistics of a project involving a few hundred people under good conditions. It was not an emergency action and we had lots of opportunity to plan everything. Even then the effort and the glitches were impressive. I'd bet that there is a group of people trying to coordinate this and they haven't had but a few hours sleep in days and are living on coffee and adrenaline. Give them a chance, this is an emergency beyond comprehension. At least they are wisely decentralizing the command structure by giving individual governors control. That will actually speed things up because the information queues will be shorter and more direct.

[NaughtieGirl]

(creeps forward) The government would have money and resources to send if we weren't in Iraq! (runs away)

:rofl: You are braver than me, I didn't even dare to go there.

[InternationalPlayboy]

(creeps forward) The government would have money and resources to send if we weren't in Iraq! (runs away)

And people.

Just got an email forwarded from my corporate headquarters. They are providing an initial $2,000,000 "for relief assistance. This contribution is based on the current needs assessment. It will support the company's Gulf Coast employees through a relief fund established specifically for this purpose, and will support their local communities with a contribution to the American Red Cross."

They are also matching employee contributions (tax deductable) dollar for dollar up to a maximum of $500,000.

And:

In addition to immediate monetary assistance, resources are being tapped across the company to help our employees and operations. We are working to deliver food and necessary supplies, vehicles, temporary office trailers, generators, compressors and other equipment. Company aircraft have been pressed into service. Satellite telephones have been sent to the area to address the communications problems, and personnel issues such as payroll distribution are being addressed. We will continue to do everything in our power to ensure the comfort and well-being of our employees and hasten the resumption of business.

I'm witholding the name of the company for personal privacy reasons. Let's just say it's a huge borg that provides services to the government.

I noticed yesterday when following a link at Yahoo that there are also a couple of groups out there collecting money to help the animals that were affected by this disaster.

[Mtnjim]

It does say there are already 15,000 people involved in the rescue efforts, admittedly 5,000 are on the aircraft carrier but that is a good base for operations too. They also say that dozens of helicopters are already in use in New Orleans rescuing people.

The news this morning was that they had to pull the helicopters out for the moment because some fools were shooting at them. Also they had to pull police out of search and rescue to control rioting and looting.



Didn't hear a lot of this from so called 3rd world countries after the tsunami. Such a shame seems the so called 3rd world is more civilized then we are!!

[belgareth]

The news this morning was that they had to pull the helicopters out for the moment because some fools were shooting at them. Also they had to pull police out of search and rescue to control rioting and looting.



Didn't hear a lot of this from so called 3rd world countries after the tsunami. Such a shame seems the so called 3rd world is more civilized then we are!!

Yeah, I saw it too. :sad: Damned foolishness! What is wrong with people?

To follow up on something Naughtie mentioned. The Rotary Club in this area has set a goal of $100,000 from this area alone for disaster aid. They will easily meet this and probably will far exceed it.

[NaughtieGirl]

Agreed that the food, water, tarps, tents etc would be a big help but they've got to come from somewhere. That means obtaining transport, loading them on the transport and dispersing them to delivery vehicles once they get on site. Where are the needed materials? There are no central records to rely on. What transport are you going to use from each storage location? Where will that transport come from and how long will it take to get there, get loaded and make it to the affected area? Do we pull choppers from the rescue effort to do that? How else do we disperse them? Where do we drop them? Does anybody know where the needs are the greatest?

I'm not saying that search and rescue isn't a priority, nor that they aren't doing enough. I just think they are leaving one resource untapped. If people had the means to help themselves a bit it might even free up some of the relief workers for those who need it the most. It would also cut down on unrest. Give them something positive to do.

Put the food and tarps in a plane at ... well let's say Keesler AFB. Put all those bootcamp guys to work. The only thing I haven't figured out is how to drop water from the air. Filtration devices such as hikers use?

Oh I don't know... it's just looking worse and worse...

[belgareth]

Agreed that the food, water, tarps, tents etc would be a big help but they've got to come from somewhere. That means obtaining transport, loading them on the transport and dispersing them to delivery vehicles once they get on site. Where are the needed materials? There are no central records to rely on. What transport are you going to use from each storage location? Where will that transport come from and how long will it take to get there, get loaded and make it to the affected area? Do we pull choppers from the rescue effort to do that? How else do we disperse them? Where do we drop them? Does anybody know where the needs are the greatest?

I'm not saying that search and rescue isn't a priority, nor that they aren't doing enough. I just think they are leaving one resource untapped. If people had the means to help themselves a bit it might even free up some of the relief workers for those who need it the most. It would also cut down on unrest. Give them something positive to do.

Put the food and tarps in a plane at ... well let's say Keesler AFB. Put all those bootcamp guys to work. The only thing I haven't figured out is how to drop water from the air. Filtration devices such as hikers use?

Oh I don't know... it's just looking worse and worse...

I know you aren't saying that. All I'm saying is that even locating the needed materials and getting them to the area is a major project. You are dealing with huge numbers. Just the MREs alone take up truckloads of space. Feeding the people in the astrodome alone is a mighty undertaking.

[Mtnjim]

"What is wrong with people?"

While I'm sure that there are a lot of fine people in the area, you have to remember that this is the area that produced the inbreeds that would lynch "nigras" for just looking at "white wimin". Just genetics showing up.

[NaughtieGirl]

I know you aren't saying that. All I'm saying is that even locating the needed materials and getting them to the area is a major project. You are dealing with huge numbers. Just the MREs alone take up truckloads of space. Feeding the people in the astrodome alone is a mighty undertaking.

:lol: Alright, alright, I'll compromise. Just water and tarps.

You can easily go 7 -10 days without food, but not without water.

[belgareth]

"What is wrong with people?"

While I'm sure that there are a lot of fine people in the area, you have to remember that this is the area that produced the inbreeds that would lynch "nigras" for just looking at "white wimin". Just genetics showing up.

Think they're inbreeds? I always thought they were throwbacks to pre-cromagnum. Not quite man yet, still little better than apes who have forgotten how to climb a tree.

[NaughtieGirl]

Think they're inbreeds? I always thought they were throwbacks to pre-cromagnum. Not quite man yet, still little better than apes who have forgotten how to climb a tree.

It's going to turn ugly before too long.

On an optimist note: They showed four guys on tv this morning, two of whom I'd be afraid of if I encountered them in a dark alley. Between the four of them, they tied bed sheets together to make a life-line and rescued 15 people while the storm was raging!

[koolking1]

I don't quite get it. On internet news sites you hear that the Guard, Police, Army are all over the place but on the TV news (CNN) there's no sign of any presence at the N.O. convention center nor the stadium. It's dire and getting worse. In the old days, the US Air Force that I knew, would have c-130s dropping supplies right and left.

[belgareth]

It's already turning ugly. Armed gangs roaming the streets stealing everything in siight. You know very well they'll be trying to take control of any supplies they can get their paws on.

Guess you can't judge a book by its cover? There are a lot of pretty rough looking types I'd trust a lot sooner than a corporate executive or a politician.

[Netghost56]

Yeah, there's just so much tension coming from feeling ignored or neglected after several days.

Never underestimate the power of hunger and thirst - it will drive a human insane.

I feel for them, I really do, Can you imagine being surrounded by dead bodies, filth, and other starving, smelly people? Really harsh environment.

[NaughtieGirl]

I don't quite get it. On internet news sites you hear that the Guard, Police, Army are all over the place but on the TV news (CNN) there's no sign of any presence at the N.O. convention center nor the stadium. It's dire and getting worse. In the old days, the US Air Force that I knew, would have c-130s dropping supplies right and left.

MSNBC has a female reporter in a NO suburb who reported this morning that they haven't seen one single rescue person yet.

[belgareth]

Well, they've been somewhere. It's a big area.

I feel for those people too. It has to be horrible for them. Hungry, thirsty, tired, hot and wet. Things are happening and help will get to them. There are only so many rescuers and little transportation for them. Then those morons shooting at the makes it even worse for all the rest.

[Netghost56]

I was thinking out loud on the way home from town and I had an idea:

Since most of the people there have no money and no homes, and N.O. and surrounding areas will have to be cleaned up and rebuilt, why not have the government set up the funding to pay these people to do the clean-up work? Those that want to and are able-bodied. They would need temporary housing, food and water, and would get a minimum wage for doing say, 6 hours of work a day. Sort of like the CCC.

But I guess Dubya and FEMA would rather charge the state for the clean-up...

[belgareth]

That's actually a really good idea. Sounds like a win-win.

[koolking1]

there are flying missions out of the airport but looks like finding survivors is the priority for now. Pilots have not slept since Mon night!!!

[belgareth]

Here's a link to pictures on Yahoo.It gives you a feel for the disaster as well as the effort being made to help. http://news.yahoo.com/photos/sm/events/ts/080304tropicalweathe/p:1

[Mtnjim]

Yeah, there's just so much tension coming from feeling ignored or neglected after several days.

Never underestimate the power of hunger and thirst - it will drive a human insane.

I feel for them, I really do, Can you imagine being surrounded by dead bodies, filth, and other starving, smelly people? Really harsh environment.

Yes, and we heard far less rioting, looting and shooting at rescue helicopters in the "third world countries" after the tsunami. More evidence of the pussification and stupidly of America. Waaa Waaa, something is wrong and no one has immediately made me OK! Unfortunately, this situation is bringing out the worst (and in others the best ) in people!

[NaughtieGirl]

Yes, and we heard far less rioting, looting and shooting at rescue helicopters in the "third world countries" after the tsunami. More evidence of the pussification and stupidly of America. Waaa Waaa, something is wrong and no one has immediately made me OK! Unfortunately, this situation is bringing out the worst (and in others the best ) in people!

I will readily agree that many other nations/cultures (whatever they may be called) are much "tougher" and resilient than Americans and Western Europeans. We are like spoiled children.

PS Should I have called them "developing countries"?

[belgareth]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050901/ap_on_go_co/katrina_congress

[NaughtieGirl]

From here on, I say let the looters loot. Don't even waste your energy on them. Some of them are looting for survival - fine, and well... with some luck the others will drop their electronics in the water and ... there you go.

I just saw a totally heartwrenching report from the Convention Centre (I have to assume that's in N.O.). The (seemingly tough) black male reporter was nearly in tears. It has started --- babies and elderly dying from dehydration. He said people are orderly, followed orders by going there and now they are utterly desperate. The anchor said they couldn't broadcast the images and the reporter replied he only filmed what he felt was fit for broadcast, not the worst of it.

[belgareth]

very sad...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/katrina_hospitals

[NaughtieGirl]

Whether I agonize over it or not, will not change a thing. I need to turn of the news for the night....

[belgareth]

After harping on the logistic issues I decided to look at the figures for myself to get a handle on how much work is reall involved iin trying to help these poor people. Here are a few pieces of information I came up with. I had to approximate in a lot of cases but it should be close.

Assuming 100,000 people in the stadium need 3 meals a day. Use MREs since cooking is out of the question. Assume they arre palletized for faster handling but packed in as perfectly as possible. You would need about 240 60' semi trailers a day delivering just to the stadium. That means you are unloading 10 huge trucks per hour every hour! Drinking water would be easy if you figure one gallon a day per person. A couple tanker trucks would handle that. Distribution would be the real trick once you got the stuff there. I fiddled with a few different schemes but they all broke down over time. Where you'd get that many MREs or water containers is anybody's guess. Waste is something I couldn't even begin to handle.

Houston has agreed to accept 25,000 people. Now, assume that a bus holds 60 people. Loading them is easier than unloading trucks because the people can line up and get on the buses themselves. If everything went well, you could load several buses at a time and have them leaving one after the other. If you could find enough buses, you would have to have a bus leaving every 2 minutes for 30 hours solid to get them all moved. I checked, there is no direct rail line between New Orleans and Houston, it would actually take almost twice as long per trip to move people by rail. You might be able to do it by sea but remember that the world's mightiest aircraft carriers only hold about 5,000 people and wouldn't be able to move at more than 25-30 miles per hour at best.

The New Orleans disaster area is around 100 square miles. Let's say you have 50 helicopters, that means each bird is responsible for 2 square miles. If you need to fly over every potential hold out, every place that could have people stranded at a max speed of 30 miles per hour, depending on what you want to call a complete search, it might take you a week of flying time for each bird, that's assuming that you never stopped to pick anybody up and no idiot is shooting at you.

Keep in mind that I am only looking at New Orleans, there are a lot of other people suffering elsewhere that need help as well. It is an unbelievable task. I think they are right, the city must, at least temporarily be abandoned.

I'm not trying to be a pessimist but we all need to realize how big this disaster really is. The amount of help flooding in is incredible but I don't believe the worst is nearly over yet.

[CptKipling]

Did you guys here about the rapes in the Stadium? It's been on the news over here...disgusting.

[belgareth]

Did you guys here about the rapes in the Stadium? It's been on the news over here...disgusting.
No, I hadn't heard but haven't been watching TV either. Did they catch the animals?

[CptKipling]

I don't think so, but then I haven't exactly got the whole picture. As far as I know it's like a post apocolyptic free for all in there where the big guys get the food and water first. And now either they have run out of supplies or they soon will.

[bjf]

It's ironic that the dumbest president in U.S. history is presiding over the two greatest catastrophes in U.S. history.

[koolking1]

well, every 4 years or 8 years we vote for a new president and we are ever hopeful that things will always be better. Not so this time.

I have heard some reports of rape in the dome, teenagers being blamed so far. When you let a very large group of people suffer as those folks have, order will (and does) break down.

[NaughtieGirl]

Well... Not to make light of the situation, far from me... but this was just e-mailed to me, and I got a chuckle out of it.

This is an email that someone wrote to Greta van Susteren on FoxTV News.
Dear Greta,

On Wednesday's show you repeatedly mentioned someone that had been waiting on their roof for help for five days! The storm hit Monday. The levee was breached on Tuesday. Was part of her hurricane preparation to sit on a roof for a couple of days prior to the storm? Outrageous reporting like this from you and others in the media inflames the public and is inexcusable. There is no need to hype this horrible catastrophe more than what it is.

John E. Henderson

Ft. Pierce, FL

I do think that some of the media are milking this tragedy for all that's it's worth. :sad:

[belgareth]

I do think that some of the media are milking this tragedy for all that's it's worth. :sad:
Now there's something surprising! :hammer: I can't imagine the American mass media doing something like that. How terribly unethical! :rasp:

[Netghost56]

Well, I DO think that all at Fox News are a bunch of vultures (All Bill O'Reilly does is "bloviate" about the gas prices), one person at Fox that has shown his true colors is Shepard Smith. He has been in N.O. since before Katrina, on location. Over the past few days I've watched him help people out of the water, and seen him chase after cops and soldiers asking, "why aren't you helping?" Weds. night he was on O'Reilly and he was extremely agitated and nearly shouted at Bill about how there had been no help for the victims. He was very angry about the lack of military help and scolded Bill when Bill mentioned that "preparation takes time". "They don't have time," he said, "People are dying of thirst and starvation here!" He really got into it, so to speak. I've been watching him today and you can tell he's exhausted by his appearance, and he walks from location to location during his program. He's really moved up a few notches in my book.

And Geraldo has always been pretty decent about the news, can't understand why he's not with CNN.

[NaughtieGirl]

Well, I DO think that all at Fox News are a bunch of vultures (All Bill O'Reilly does is "bloviate" about the gas prices), one person at Fox that has shown his true colors is Shepard Smith. He has been in N.O. since before Katrina, on location. Over the past few days I've watched him help people out of the water, and seen him chase after cops and soldiers asking, "why aren't you helping?" Weds. night he was on O'Reilly and he was extremely agitated and nearly shouted at Bill about how there had been no help for the victims. He was very angry about the lack of military help and scolded Bill when Bill mentioned that "preparation takes time". "They don't have time," he said, "People are dying of thirst and starvation here!" He really got into it, so to speak. I've been watching him today and you can tell he's exhausted by his appearance, and he walks from location to location during his program. He's really moved up a few notches in my book.

And Geraldo has always been pretty decent about the news, can't understand why he's not with CNN.

I'm going to switch stations to get some different stories. I saw this black guy on MSNBC (he's sporting a 4 day stuble by now) who seems pretty genuine as well.

Geraldo... he must be in Iraq!

[NaughtieGirl]

Now there's something surprising! :hammer: I can't imagine the American mass media doing something like that. How terribly unethical! :rasp:

Not to say that reality doesn't exceed our perception (or their reporting) of the misery! :trout:

[belgareth]

I'm listening to a news briefing on the disaster. Some fiigures I heard were:
1700 Trucks have delivered over 1.7 MREs
there are 1100 buses running and the expect to have the superdome EMPTY within the next 4 hours!

[Netghost56]

I heard that there was a 6 mile long convoy delivering 9+ million MREs, and they expect to have the Superdome emptied by the end of today. No word on WHERE they're going to take all these people, though.

NG: No I just caught a glimpse of Geraldo in N.O. His hair is all crazy like Don King's.

[belgareth]

The number of MREs I heard was already delivered.75,000 people are coming to Texas. 25, 000 will be about 10 miles from my house.

[NaughtieGirl]

The number of MREs I heard was already delivered.75,000 people are coming to Texas. 25, 000 will be about 10 miles from my house.

I honestly, truly wish I were close enough to do something tangible other than a donation.

I have a weakness for old people. I'd love to take in a little old lady.

[koolking1]

"I have a weakness for old people. I'd love to take in a little old lady"

NG, Sue and I have been talking about that for 2 days now. It may come to pass as Texas is taking on so much that we need to help them. I suppose it's unknown right now but there could very well be 100s of 1000s of homeless. We would be happy to open our home up to any family.

[NaughtieGirl]

"I have a weakness for old people. I'd love to take in a little old lady"

NG, Sue and I have been talking about that for 2 days now. It may come to pass as Texas is taking on so much that we need to help them. I suppose it's unknown right now but there could very well be 100s of 1000s of homeless. We would be happy to open our home up to any family.

:rofl: I just heard the most hilarious tirade from my husband. I didn't bring it up tonight, I must have said something last night.

He was going on and on about how I wouldn't be able to get any work done. How she would be demanding "fried chicken and grits" all the time! :rofl:

All joking set aside, I could easily house 4 people upstairs (with their own private bathroom) but how are they ever going to make it this far North? With winter coming, they'd be miserable.

[Mtnjim]

"I have a weakness for old people."


Now that you mention it, can I come and visit??
:lol: :run: :lol: :lol:

[Netghost56]

Did anybody catch Kanye West on the Telethon?
http://www.fox23news.com/entertainment/story.aspx?content_id=0E71260D-B9E0-4A4A-8621-7A101016AA7A

I think everybody was shocked. My mother and I were watching it and she didn't notice but I gasped at the Bush comment! Even Chris Tucker was noticably shocked. I thought Mike Myers was gonna faint!

I'm glad he said something, though. I think some of what he said deserved to be heard. I've been hearing things -bits and pieces- that suggest that MAYBE the government/military had some ulterior motives going into N.O...

[koolking1]

what did the guy say?????

[DrSmellThis]

When the going gets tough the best and worst comes out in humans. So I wouldn't doubt someone having alterior motives.

Speculation was today that Feds were trying to sabotage and punish LA's Democratic governor by some of their actions, and also black congresspeople charging that the response would have completely different had it been upscale whites. Others were implying those that didn't leave (sick, poor people) deserved what they got. All the officials in DC scrambling to save their asses and make excuses was pretty pathetic. It's a little sickenuing to listen to all of it. The NO mayor was ripping them all new orifices. I just can't relate to anyone not standing up and being a compassionate, adult adrenaline filled warrior; without regards to their toddler egos in this situation.

Not to get political, but I was very touched that our fearless leader actually had Air force One fly extra low when passing over NO so he could take a brief look. He waited days to speak about it, and went to a fundraiser out west, rather than visit the area earlier. Why can't you, as president, just get off your ass immediately in this circumstance? I'd have given at least two speeches the first night, one on the radio, not slept, flown there, and been on the phone constantly with everybody coordinating. That's your job. That's your people dying. It's three days late and a dollar short with this guy. Did he read My Pet Goat from Tuesday through Thursday?

It has been a logistical nightmare, to be sure, but I didn't personally hear about too many big attempts at creativity early on. Whatever leader knows the most just makes their best guess on the spot and lets it fly in an emergency. There should have been a rapid response element, regardless of the inability to plan. You drop boats in there, send busses and amphibian verhicles, free up helicopters, drop palettes of water, drop rafts, deport the floating hospital ship, whatever! Give instructions on the fly. It seems like almost nothing happened. My apologies if I just don't understand, but that's how I'm seeing it.

[koolking1]

duh! I'm having to add these words to reach the minimum allowable.

[koolking1]

on CNBC, a repeat of the 8PM EST show! We want to see this!

[bjf]

Considering a cat. 4 or 5 hurricane hitting New Orleans was predicted to flood it, what's there excuse for not preparing for that to happen?

It's amazing how dysfunctional of an organization our government is.

[Netghost56]

I'm with you Doc. It's been a cluster$%#* all the way around. I'm rooting for Nagin (NO Mayor)! I heard what he said on the radio broadcast and I was like, Heck Yeah!

This has also been a major political disaster. With Dubya's polls already sliding, they're sure to bottom out, and the Republican party will surely take some major hits (LA's gov is all Rep, that I know ).

Blanco did a decent job with the evac, though. She order I-49 south closed and had eight lanes of people driving north. Heck of a job and I'm glad she took the initiative.

[Holmes]

Considering a cat. 4 or 5 hurricane hitting New Orleans was predicted to flood it, what's there excuse for not preparing for that to happen?

There was ample warning. The government had known for awhile a) that the area was sinking into oblivion and b) that inclement weather conditions (like, say, a hurricane) would have dire consequences. But please, wasn't Iraq really more important than a couple of poor f*ckers in Voodooland?

The saddest and most enraging thing about this is that it could have been prevented.

[Netghost56]

I noticed they censored the MSNBC run. Figures.

Ifilm has the clip (already!):
http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2678975

[belgareth]

Maybe I am missing the point here but until every one of those people are out of there it seems like a waste of energy and time to even talk about political issues. Why are we wasting time on that now when the important part is getting those people to a place of safety and relative comfort?

There will be, beyond any doubt whatsoever, an accounting when it is all said and done. As a matter of priority, lets take care of the people first and worry about other issues later. I'm sure we'll all get our fill of political finger pointing, one-up-manship and posturing in the days and weeks to come.

[DrSmellThis]

Hopefully people are now off their asses and mobilized. That is of course the point.

[bjf]

Maybe I am missing the point here but until every one of those people are out of there it seems like a waste of energy and time to even talk about political issues. Why are we wasting time on that now when the important part is getting those people to a place of safety and relative comfort?

There will be, beyond any doubt whatsoever, an accounting when it is all said and done. As a matter of priority, lets take care of the people first and worry about other issues later. I'm sure we'll all get our fill of political finger pointing, one-up-manship and posturing in the days and weeks to come.

I was wondering, since you and Friendly are near refugees, if your thinking about taking any in. I have a friend actually in atlanta who is doing so.

[wood elf]

I was wondering, since you and Friendly are near refugees, if your thinking about taking any in. I have a friend actually in atlanta who is doing so.

Belgareth is not here this morning, nor was he here until late last night. You are correct that we are near the reunion arena. That is where he is. He is helping.

We do not have space to take a family in. His daughter has been with us since mid-summer and the other room is rented to a friend. Placing a guest in the garage would not be a favor to them.

[bjf]

Belgareth is not here this morning, nor was he here until late last night. You are correct that we are near the reunion arena. That is where he is. He is helping.

We do not have space to take a family in. His daughter has been with us since mid-summer and the other room is rented to a friend. Placing a guest in the garage would not be a favor to them.


Cool, maybe he can tell us about the experience in Dallas. I may be down in Houston in a couple of weeks on a business trip.

[wood elf]

Perhaps but do not count on it. That is something he rarely speaks of here or elsewhere.

[wood elf]

Hopefully people are now off their asses and mobilized. That is of course the point.
Do you know that they were not in the first "Off their asses"? Does any here have an idea what people were doing? I did not myself and too was asking such questions. Belgareth took paper and pen to show me all that is involved. Take the time to learn what truly transpired, what people were doing. Errors were made, how could they not be? Many were made by the very people we are now attempting to help and more by those who should have been leading their city before the storm, the very same who are now casting aspersions upon those trying to help them. The news in this country is exceptional at sensationalizing and misrepresenting based on agendas. Comments I read here make me believe that people have not taken the effort to discover the truth behind the news. Forget partisanship for today and put your energies to the task at hand which is to help people in need.

[koolking1]

many of us are far from the problem and can't do much other than donate money. That being said, we do have the luxury of being able to monitor and correctly assess what has happened. It appears to almost all in this country and likely the rest of the world that the relief effort was not a stellar enterprise.

[wood elf]

I do not dispute that it was not a stellar undertaking but I do not know why though I do realize that it is not possible to mobilize so many resources in an instant. Have you information that is not currently available to a diligent reader? Have you reviewed the chain of command and discovered the errors and actions taken? It would be very interesting to learn those things and most important to determining what did cause the apparent delays.

[koolking1]

I have no idea either who is responsible for delays or quick action. What I do know is that when I was in the US Air Force, it's been 16 years now so much has changed, we were able to readily drop water, food, and medical supplies from helicopters and C-130s on a moment's notice. Another change from back then is that we used to be able to intercept runaway airplanes and shoot them down if need be. Apparently, the Greek Air Force still has this capability, could we outsource our air defenses to them do ya think?

[Netghost56]

Call me naive, but I think the lack of military speed is solely to blame on Iraq. Whether we're lacking manpower is not really the case; the fact is that most of our officers and command structure are all overseas.

I'm only 2 hours from Shreveport, we've talked about taking in a family but so far there hasn't been any call for it in Ark.

Donations wise, we've been having trouble. Around here all they want is money :rant: We don't have money, but we have lots of clothes and food to give. We were planning on having a huge garage sale a few years back but cancelled it. We still have 6 boxes of clothes still packed up. We're willing to give them to charity, but so far no one will take them. The charities around here are very untrustworthy. The Salvation Army will only take brand new clothes, not used. Red Cross won't takes supplies, only money. One church was taking up money TO BUY A TRUCK to send supplies (WTF?) Chances are they'll keep the truck.

My college is taking up stuff but only food. No clothes. Why? you got me.

There's a church in Texarkana that's taking everything, so we'll probably go there.

[NaughtieGirl]

I do not dispute that it was not a stellar undertaking but I do not know why though I do realize that it is not possible to mobilize so many resources in an instant. Have you information that is not currently available to a diligent reader? Have you reviewed the chain of command and discovered the errors and actions taken? It would be very interesting to learn those things and most important to determining what did cause the apparent delays.

Yes, it is a stellar undertaking. Yes, the media will do anything to sensationalize things. Although I must also add that when you are near a disaster, and then later you see it on tv it always looks like less on tv than what it was in reality. Remember the 9/11 relief workers? When they actually got to "ground zero" they said reality was much worse than the images on tv could convey.

I have no answers or explanations. The only thing I know is that I saw reports early Thursday. Black MSNBC reporter, obviously shaken was interviewing people at the Convention Centre. That is when a couple of elderly poeple and babies had just died from dehydration. Makes sense - almost 4 days. They wouldn't even broadcast the images he took and he said he only filmed what he felt was fit for broadcast. This guy looked shaken and close to tears. I kept wondering why they couldn't just drop some crates of water from some helicopters. Weren't they watching tv? Aren't "embedded" reporters a good source of information especially considering all other means of communication were down? Other places were reporting the same thing. We hear help is underway, but we haven't seen a thing.

Next question. Friday night finally it started happening. But if they could do it on Friday eve, why couldn't they have done it on Tue eve? They will say there were people shooting at them. Give me a break! Shoot back! Declare the area under martial law. If you can't go in on Wednesday because they are shooting, do you thing there will be less shooting 2 days later?

Rant mode OFF.

[bjf]

They reacted to the flood rather than prepared for the flood.

Of course it took long.

[DrSmellThis]

Neither myself or anyone else here knows things in exhaustive detail that only an independent commission can determine over months, of course. But I think in this case many typical Americans (e.g., Koolking, Naughtie) can understand what is and is not happening on general terms, if they are dilligent readers and have some relevant life experiences. It's a pretty concrete job to be done, even if complex. The largest chunk of people were confined to a couple predetermined locations. There was a lot of time to prepare for that scenario, at least, including contingency emergency plans. Routine stuff. This was always a well known, concrete possibility.

I'm thankful Bel is helping, and also believe that most of us in the forum are compassionate enough to help in whatever way we can. Expressing an opinion here doesn't affect that.

[Netghost56]

Next question. Friday night finally it started happening. But if they could do it on Friday eve, why couldn't they have done it on Tue eve? They will say there were people shooting at them. Give me a break! Shoot back! Declare the area under martial law. If you can't go in on Wednesday because they are shooting, do you thing there will be less shooting 2 days later?

I heard that: That they stopped the evacs and supply drops because of gunfire at the choppers.

That's f'ing rediculous. Those chopper pilots, miltary and guard, have likely been over to Iraq (or at least been trained), where they have to take off and land under fire, and here they freak out because of a few guys firing at them? Give me a break.

They're either spineless or incompetent.

[Netghost56]

And this is what burns my blood the most:

In addition to deployments in Kos (http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=Kosovo)ovo (http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=Kosovo) and Afghanistan, the National Guard is heavily committed to the conflict in Iraq. The Army National Guard has 39,800 soldiers in Iraq and the Air National Guard has about 900. That represents about 30 percent of all U.S. forces in Iraq. Thousands also are operating in Kuwait.

Blum said the only Guard unit he knows of that has been pulled off the list to rotate into Iraq is a small unit whose members live in Gulfport, Miss., which was heavily battered by Hurricane Katrina.

"Many of them, we can't find them," Blum said.

A Guard infantry unit that was training at Camp Shelby, Miss., when Katrina struck has been kept off disaster relief duty so that it can deploy to Iraq as scheduled, Blum said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050903/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/katrina_military_strains (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050903/ap_on_re_us/hurricane_katrina_25)

[belgareth]

Hi everybody.

I'm both tired and angry so if my words are harsh, please take that into account and forgive me for it.

I'm happy to say that the people I met today are far better off than the news showed us but that's usually true. Certainly there are sick and injured. I can compare it to what I saw on the news after the Loma Prieta quake when the news made it look as if the whole bay area was on fire. Certainly there has been suffering but the news only brought you the worst 5%, they did not show you much, if any of the best. I spoke to a lot of people today for a few minutes or longer in some cases. They all wanted to tell their story.

Most of them are more concerned now that their livelihoods and homes are gone. Many are angry with themselves for not leaving when they were warned. Many more still are angry with the relative luxury the mayor stayed in while they suffered. Some wanted to know why the city didn't make any effort to get them out. There will be plenty of blame to go around.

There's a triag station set up and everybody is checked as they get off the busses. From there, they are assigned a place to sleep, given more food and water and the opportunity to shower and change clothes. Parents herding their children, old people being helped by their spouses or by strangers. Men and women everywhere rushing to assist those most in need. Much of what I saw renewed my faith in humanity, much that I heard depressed me. There were stories of greatness and great greed.

The guardsmen I saw and talked to were exhausted. Some had been on duty almost constantly since Tuesday afternoon. I ate lunch with a few of them. We got MREs, the same as everybody else and ate them sitting on the ground. I can't begin to tell you how little you understand about the people that were trying their best to rescue others and save lives.

To answer your comment Netghost, you don't know what you are talking about. Those pilots were risking their lives for endless hours trying to save other lives. Most of them were not out of their seats other than bathroom breaks for more than 20 hours at a time. They were doing the best they could to save everybody they could. It wasn't just the military pilots who could not fly in, it was the air ambulance people and it was their bosses who told them to not fly in both cases. Both groups had a good reason. How many would have been killed on the ground if one of those birds got shot down and crashed into the Superdome?

Doc, You are right of course that practical experience will help us all to understand better what happened. I invite any others who have practical experience managing projects to chime in here. I can cite my experience in both the corporate world where we as managers had to plan for disasters and in my business but would like to hear from others too.

No, at this level it does no harm to voice an opinion, informed or not. However, at the higher levels it certainly does when it takes people away from trying to manage this mess. I agree that a bi-partisan panel needs to be formed and look forward to their findings, hopefully without all the political finger-pointing, posturing and grandstanding such things usually degenerate into.

I'm going to get a shower now and take an evening out.

[NaughtieGirl]

Thank you Bel for that first-hand account. I'm sure there were more pleasant things for you to do after what I'm sure must have been an emotionally difficult day. I'm very happy to hear that 95% of the people were better off health-wise than what the media made them seem to be.

Trying to move forward and learn lessons from this, rather than getting angry... (That is what my husband admonished me to do last night as I was getting all riled up again) His suggestion was that next time an evacuation is ordered, the people should be:
- Removed more forcefully
- Given more assistance (those who didn't have cars)

Put in more effort before the hurricane hits - to decrease the search and rescue efforts tenfold after. It's not foolproof though, I remember one hurricane that went straight for the shelters where people had been evacuated to! :frustrate

As far as Netghost's frustration at them only accepting money right now. I think over time, there will be opportunities to offer clothing and such. I think that for right now relief crews are trying to move as fast as possible and receiving loads of assorted items would be too time-consuming to sort through.

Hey if worse comes to worse we'll just mail all the stuff to Bel and he'll deliver it right to them! :lol:
Hey Bel, just in case you do go back - give some little old lady a big hug from me?

[DrSmellThis]

Thanks for the report, Bel. I'm glad most everyone there was OK. I hope that is the case elsewhere. Most reports that I've seen indicate a ton of heroism among the front lines people, and so that's not suprising to me; nor is the fact that most people will make it. It is apparent that the help people are getting now is impressive and extensive, from many reports, though it's still extremely bad for some and too late for many others. I very much wish I could go there and pitch in, if they needed my help, and I wouldn't be in the way.

We're currently scheduling fundraisers with the musicians I know and play with. I expect other musicians around town will follow suit, and that you will have benefits every night of the week here soon, beginning this coming week. Many here and elsewhere will be offering their homes to those who can travel this far, of course. America is coming together, as expected.

I wouldn't feel bad in the slightest about just being able to contribute money. Both Bill Clinton and George Bush senior, who together organized the national Tsunami relief efforts, emphasized as strongly as they could that the infrastructure is not there to handle everyone's material donations, and that people like the Red Cross are far better set up to provide the most help the fastest. Officials will let people know if they want clothes, food, vehicles, and other materials.

[Netghost56]

Please forgive me if I sound stingy, but there's a reason why I've only bought gel packs from here. My folks live from paycheck to paycheck, and over the past few years we've gradually fallen in finances. We used to give money to charities but we're no longer able to. Plus there has been rumors for years about people (in the area) embezzling from charities. My grandmother herself is loathe to give money because "Money has a habit of sticking to fingers". You don't have a solid assurance of where your money goes- but there's only two places that clothes or food can go: To a person or to a trashcan. Even then there's people out there that will take these things and turn around and sell them. I don't have faith in people? Probably not. I can allow myself to trust a person (over time), but people in general- I don't know.

My grandmother called her sister in Houston today. One of her friends lives in an apartment just two blocks from the Astrodome. She said that in the last two days, 6 security guards had been added to the staff. They were planning a curfew and cautioning people to be aware when walking to their car in the parking garage. My great-aunt said she had been watching footage of the Astrodome, and she said 90% of the people getting off some of the buses were "tough-looking young men". She said that newspeople said the staff at the dome were nervous, and calling for more security. That's what she said, take it as you will.

ED: Naughtie: Yes, "before the hurricane" definitely. I think that after everything settles down, attention will be focused on this. It's strange that so soon after 9/11 our emergency policies have become lax. It's a lazy train of thought: One hurricane misses, another misses, another dies out, another misses, "here's another" "Eh, it'll miss us"... ... ... "Whoops."

I remember when we had a "terror drill" in school in Dec. 2001. We all figured it would become as common as tornado or fire drills. That was the first and last time we did this. A few months afterwards no one thought it was possible, and we were back to post-9/1 1 thinking. But while getting back to normal life is good, it's naive to think that "lightning never strikes twice."

I'm truly sorry that I'm negative, but I just feel what my life's experience has taught me.

[belgareth]

We went out and relaxed this evening, still tired but not sleepy. Too much on my mind. I'd like to share a little more with you. I was there to deliver clothes and other things. Clothes they don't really need more of, they have mountains right now. Toothpaste and toothbrushes, soap, shampoo, baby care products and formula; all the incidentals are what they need. I am not speaking for any of the other centers, only for what I saw in Dallas today. Even manpower is not really needed, things are well in hand. The group I was with ran out of useful things to do so we left. They were wisely having the healthy refugees help the less able. It gives them something to do and helps their morale.

Netghost, We each do what we can and nobody thinks less of you for what you cannot do. I have little doubt that if it were nearer your home you would be there to help. Yes, there were some pretty rough looking types getting off the buses, some in tears and others looking shell shocked. Not one looking sure of themselves. Many of them were helping others and carrying children or guiding older people. There are sure to be trouble makers too but they will be the minority.

Naughtie, my anger was directed both at the foolishness of those who decided to stay when they could have left and at the city government that never gave so many the help they needed to leave, some of who are no longer among the living. It's also directed at the hundreds or even thousands of armchair quarterbacks who are judging and condeming without ever understanding the real issues and mechanics or those lowest of creatures who are even now using this human disaster to promote their agenda. Oh, I gave quite a few people hugs today and recieved a few too.

Doc, You to can only do what you can. Money will be needed everywhere and the effort is worthwhile. You might even consider holding back and not sending it until people start to return and the work of rebuilding is started. Many dollars will be needed by the people then.

People, for now, this isn't about politics or skin color or rich or poor. It's about human error, the incredible power of nature and simple mechanics. A reckoning will come but for now the only important thing is the well being of all those people whose homes are destroyed and their whole way of life washed away. I ask you to all focus on that until such time as a reckoning is appropriate and then to deal with it in an unbiased and open minded manner. Let's not look for scapegoats but instead look for how we can do better for one another.

[NaughtieGirl]

Bel,

Just wanted to let you know that when I said ... "rather than getting angry..." it was myself I was referring to. I've been feeling quite agitated lately. I think part of it stems from a feeling of powerlessness.

[InternationalPlayboy]

Most of them are more concerned now that their livelihoods and homes are gone.

Thanks belgareth.

I wanted to donate cash locally due to my credit card load but missed the opportunity. They only collected one night and I didn't learn about it until too late. So Friday, I made a donation to Red Cross online. A lot smaller than I had intended but I still wanted to do something right away.

Habitat for Humanity is collecting for the storm victims too. I intend to send the money I originally wanted to give to that group now when I send in my monthly pledge payment.

Interesting timing, after my parents made a local donation, the next day they were called by the Fraternal Order of Police wanting their annual donation for their causes, not the hurricane victims. I also noticed that Jerry Lewis will be asking people donating to his telethon to divide their donations between the MD cause and the hurricane victims. I wondered how the telethon would fare in all of this.

[belgareth]

Thanks belgareth.

I wanted to donate cash locally due to my credit card load but missed the opportunity. They only collected one night and I didn't learn about it until too late. So Friday, I made a donation to Red Cross online. A lot smaller than I had intended but I still wanted to do something right away.

Habitat for Humanity is collecting for the storm victims too. I intend to send the money I originally wanted to give to that group now when I send in my monthly pledge payment.

Interesting timing, after my parents made a local donation, the next day they were called by the Fraternal Order of Police wanting their annual donation for their causes, not the hurricane victims. I also noticed that Jerry Lewis will be asking people donating to his telethon to divide their donations between the MD cause and the hurricane victims. I wondered how the telethon would fare in all of this.
Personal opinion only but I'd be more inclined to send the donation to Habitat or the Red Cross myself. More of it is likely to reach the victims. The police group thing was featured in an article about telemarketing groups a while back. Most groups like that send 30% or less to the people they are collecting for so I never give to them. I'm a member of a local chapter of one of the service clubs. My work and donations have all been handled through them. I know beyond a doubt that every dime I give goes to the victims and none of it goes to overhead as we all work for free. Additionally, a pretty good chunk of cash from the club's coffers has been dedicated to the relief effort.

You do the best you can, the outpouring of aid has been incredible. You wouldn't believe the number of people who drove up while I was there to deliver boxes and boxes of stuff to help these people. There were so many it nearly created a traffic jam.

[Holmes]

Thanks belgareth.

I wanted to donate cash locally due to my credit card load but missed the opportunity. They only collected one night and I didn't learn about it until too late. So Friday, I made a donation to Red Cross online. A lot smaller than I had intended but I still wanted to do something right away.

Habitat for Humanity is collecting for the storm victims too. I intend to send the money I originally wanted to give to that group now when I send in my monthly pledge payment.

Interesting timing, after my parents made a local donation, the next day they were called by the Fraternal Order of Police wanting their annual donation for their causes, not the hurricane victims. I also noticed that Jerry Lewis will be asking people donating to his telethon to divide their donations between the MD cause and the hurricane victims. I wondered how the telethon would fare in all of this.

I donated money (beyond my current means) to the Red Cross. No one is accepting food or clothing (which, in my understanding, they have too much of to sort through and deal with as it is). If they were, I would be giving.

If I could flap my arms down to the disaster area or help out in some other way, I would in a heartbeat.

]I've been feeling quite agitated lately. I think part of it stems from a feeling of powerlessness.

Same here.

Belgareth - you are amazing. They don't make enough of 'em like yourself.

[belgareth]

Naughtie said it well. I couldn'r stand the feeling of being powerless either. It was just luck that there was something I could do. From the responses all over the country I'd say there are lots who feel the same way.

[InternationalPlayboy]

Personal opinion only but I'd be more inclined to send the donation to Habitat or the Red Cross myself. More of it is likely to reach the victims. The police group thing was featured in an article about telemarketing groups a while back. Most groups like that send 30% or less to the people they are collecting for so I never give to them.

United Way a few years ago had some sort of scandal along related lines. They were our Project Manager's pet interest at work too, and every year they'd tug at our heartstrings for donations. The claim was that the local donations stayed local and didn't fill the organization leaders' pockets. When they directly solicited us at work, we usually had 100% participation. But now that our borg of a corporation wants to do everything online, I know they don't make 100% as I (and I think many others) have stopped contributing.

[NaughtieGirl]

United Way a few years ago had some sort of scandal along related lines. They were our Project Manager's pet interest at work too, and every year they'd tug at our heartstrings for donations. The claim was that the local donations stayed local and didn't fill the organization leaders' pockets. When they directly solicited us at work, we usually had 100% participation. But now that our borg of a corporation wants to do everything online, I know they don't make 100% as I (and I think many others) have stopped contributing.

United Way had the same type of scandal up here too! :sad:

[belgareth]

Trying to move forward and learn lessons from this, rather than getting angry... (That is what my husband admonished me to do last night as I was getting all riled up again) His suggestion was that next time an evacuation is ordered, the people should be:
- Removed more forcefully
- Given more assistance (those who didn't have cars)

I'll disagree with you here. Forcing people is never an option as we all have the right to make our own decisions. If you decide to sit in front of a hurricane or a train, for that matter, that's your choice to make. But once you've made that choice,of your own free will, don't complain when others don't feel obligated to pick up the pieces.

On the other hand, we are obligated to help those who wish to get out of the way but cannot and that wasn't done here. That was the city of New Orleans' job, responsibility and obligation. They didn't do their job and people died because of it. It was a big part of my anger yesterday.

Those two lessons need to be learned and I am sure, or at least hope they will be discussed in detail later.

Put in more effort before the hurricane hits - to decrease the search and rescue efforts tenfold after. It's not foolproof though, I remember one hurricane that went straight for the shelters where people had been evacuated to! :frustrate

Hey if worse comes to worse we'll just mail all the stuff to Bel and he'll deliver it right to them! :lol:
Hey Bel, just in case you do go back - give some little old lady a big hug from me?

If anybody has something they would like me to do towards helping people in your behalf, please let me know. However, I will not allow you to send money to or through me. I do not want to be in that position. I can suggest lots of places you can send it but will not accept it myself.

[DrSmellThis]

On Fox News, Geraldo and Shepard plea for help (http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Hannity-Colmes-Smith-Rivera-freak-in-NO.wmv)on Hannity's show (no left-wing agenda here). This one was pretty moving. I hear most are out of the convention center as of this afternoon.

Here's (http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Nightline-Fema.mov) an interview with Michael Brown, head of FEMA, fielding tough questions from Koppel.

And here (http://www.npr.org/dmg/dmg.php?prgCode=ATC&showDate=01-Sep-2005&segNum=1&NPRMediaPref=WM&getAd=1) is Michael Chertoff, Director of Homeland Security, speaking on the relief effort in a NPR interview.

(Be patient. Big files. You can scroll down the page to find them if the wmv links aren't direct. The site has been having problems with too much traffic.)

[Netghost56]

Yes, I mentioned Shepard and Geraldo. I was suprised by Shepard, but Geraldo is always like that.

IMO, they're the only two on Fox that seem human.

ED: I don't like Chertoff. I watched him on the press conference On Weds. He was like (not quotes): "There will be homes for all- rent controlled."
"There will be food for everyone- by purchasing a meal ticket."
"There will be plenty of water- if you buy a voucher."

[belgareth]

Since there is going to be an accounting of the government's failings and successes I'll only address the Fox news segment.

Are they kidding? What utter irresponsible tripe!!!!!! What a bunch of bloody fripping fools! They actually aired that?

That said let me address it step by step:

1. The national guard could not have stopped them from crossing the bridge if they had really wanted too. What would they do if even as few as a thousand people had tried? Use a machine gun? Not likely. Fortunately, they were wise enough not to force the issue and stayed put.

2. So, all these people are going to get out in the sun, always worse no matter what, and walk to another town also damaged by the hurricane. How many more would have died in the sun?

3. They couldn't prevent violence within the superdome. How much more would have occured if thousands of desperate people had started walking?

4. When the troops finally arrived, how much longer would it have taken to evacuate those people scattered all across the countryside? They are having enough trouble finding them just within the one city so you want to spread them out to double or triple the area?

5. How long would it have taken that hord of people to deplete the available food and water available in the next town? Then what?

6. Those damned fools were promoting chaos and inviting a tripling of the death toll. They should be locked up, not encouraged!

7. That was pure emotional sensationalistic journalism with no concern whatsoever for the right or wrong of their moronic ideas.

Uninformed morons like that invariably increase the amount of pain and suffering. Keeping people together was important despite the suffering. Starting them north would not have made matters better, it would have made it worse. Do the studying and learn about disaster management and why their advice was so bad, would have caused so many deaths.

[DrSmellThis]

From the above testamony by some of the leaders in this, as well as the mayor's statements, it looks like that one issue was that you have FEMA drawing up the emergency contingency plans; but local government responsible for the immediate response, and for calling FEMA in on each thing. FEMA was responding only on an "as asked" basis, if I am hearing Brown correctly. So there is no proactive role for FEMA or homeland security for a hurricane? The actual pre-disaster planning (e.g., evacuation for those who had no transportation) was both conducted and implemented by local officials, was it not?

This bespeaks a lack of agreement and/or coordination among Federal and Local government on emergency planning. The mayor and FEMA head were each looking at the other, for example, instead of working from the same, agreed upon plan.

This is exactly the scenario people feared when Ivan came through LA and MISS last year, and so you'd think the issues would have been highlighted and addressed after that.

Hurricane season is not over. So we not only need to help these Katrina victims, we need to get some agreement from top to bottom on how contingencies are going to be handled for the next hurricane.

[Netghost56]

Belgareth: Obviously, whenever you bring children into the mix emotions go into overdrive.
I believe they were simply trying to reach out to people who think less of the whole situation. I have a family member in Dallas who thinks, "to heck with them." That person is who needs to watch these things. Narrow-minded people who can't see beyond their noses.

As for the Superdome and convention center, if I was in control I would have allow able-bodied people to leave so as to make room for the sick, injured, infirm, etc. And I would make it their choice as well. I don't believe there would be a rush to the streets, and I don't see the purpose of violence if people were on the move, with a goal.

Humans naturally value their privacy and their space. So being cramped inside a place is never appealing. Whenever possible they will seek out space, which is one (only one of many) reason why they were so many outside the Superdome. I would be one of them as well. My grandmother's claustrophobic so she would be as well.

The bottom line is: The Superdome was a great shelter for those people for the first 2 days. No one ever meant for them to be there longer, and therein lies the problem. I'm sorry but there's no excuse for those people to have been cramped in those places for 5 days. Not a one.

I have a extreme distrust for the military anyway, so it's not hard for me to believe what (reporters) are saying. On Fox, MSNBC, CNN, and local news there has been talk from time to time about certain things the military has done that seems to have created more problems than good. I don't think it's bias when EVERYONE is talking about it.

[DrSmellThis]

Since there is going to be an accounting of the government's failings and successes I'll only address the Fox news segment.

Are they kidding? What utter irresponsible tripe!!!!!! What a bunch of bloody fripping fools! They actually aired that?

That said let me address it step by step:

1. The national guard could not have stopped them from crossing the bridge if they had really wanted too. What would they do if even as few as a thousand people had tried? Use a machine gun? Not likely. Fortunately, they were wise enough not to force the issue and stayed put.

2. So, all these people are going to get out in the sun, always worse no matter what, and walk to another town also damaged by the hurricane. How many more would have died in the sun?

3. They couldn't prevent violence within the superdome. How much more would have occured if thousands of desperate people had started walking?

4. When the troops finally arrived, how much longer would it have taken to evacuate those people scattered all across the countryside? They are having enough trouble finding them just within the one city so you want to spread them out to double or triple the area?

5. How long would it have taken that hord of people to deplete the available food and water available in the next town? Then what?

6. Those damned fools were promoting chaos and inviting a tripling of the death toll. They should be locked up, not encouraged!

7. That was pure emotional sensationalistic journalism with no concern whatsoever for the right or wrong of their moronic ideas.

Uninformed morons like that invariably increase the amount of pain and suffering. Keeping people together was important despite the suffering. Starting them north would not have made matters better, it would have made it worse. Do the studying and learn about disaster management and why their advice was so bad, would have caused so many deaths.I agree fully his emotional and desperate suggestion that people should just walk out was not well thought out. But that sense of desparation when people have been there for six days without help is understandable.

For me it was a video that communicated the emotion, confusion, desparation and dire circumstances in the convention center (I don't watch TV much, especially for news) in an honest manner. It was a sincere cry for help, and illustrative of the effect the situation has even on journalists. I wasn't listening to the literalness of that suggestion as being the main point, and doubt Geraldo even meant it, except as a desparate alternative to doing nothing. He was obviously extremely upset and confused, and influenced by the chaos around him. The raw desperateness of his suggestion was indeed part of the point I took from it, moreso than the literal content. The other journalist on the ground was just as upset as Geraldo.

I've never been a fan of Geraldo as a journalist/correspondent, or even taken him seriously in that way. Of course, it would have been dangerous if officials listened and thought, "Geraldo told us to make everybody walk! Let's do it!"

[Netghost56]

. I wasn't listening to the literalness of that suggestion as being the main point, and doubt Geraldo even meant it, except as a desparate alternative to doing nothing. He was obviously extremely upset and confused, and influenced by the chaos around him.

Exactly. They say Kanye West took advantage of the live broadcast (telethon) to spout his political opinions (see my earlier post for a link). I don't believe that. I don't look at his words so much as his feelings. He stuttered, stumbled, had to force the words out. It's obvious to anyone that he was very upset, and felt he had to say something, not so much for people to hear, but to get his anguish off his chest.

[belgareth]

I intentionally don't watch TV but instead spend the time learning and trying to find the truth in any situation. TV news is almost always one-sided, biased trash and is unworthy of anybody with a mind and the willingness to use it. That idiotic tirade full of wrong advice was just an exceptional example of the stupidity of network news. IT COULD HAVE GOTTEN HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE KILLED!!!!!!!!!!!! Would those bloody idiots have been held responsible if their advice had caused deaths? I'd vote for a public hanging.

It was in their best interest to stay put, like it or not. I agree that the delay seems wrong and I am eager to see what a non-partisan group comes up with on it. I also agree that people should have been free to leave, but the minute they left they were no longer the responsibility of the government to rescue, they were utterly on their own from that point on and could be shot on sight if caught stealing from others in need or otherwise causing injury to others. Harsh? Yup, sure is. But it goes right along with the freedom to act on their own. You can't have it both ways.

Doc, Agree that they need to get their act together. The lack of coordination is unbelievable. There's another group that need to be held personally responsible for the death and suffering as a result of their actions. Another is that mayor. I can't believe he had over 500 buses available to him and he made no effort whatsoever to evacuate people who had no other way out. What does he think his job is? Give speaches and eat steak? Another candidate for a public hanging.

Everybody knows I'm all about personal responsibilty and freedom. But this is what the goernment is supposed to do, protect the people. They didn't do it even before the storm. Hanging may be too good for them.

[belgareth]

I agree fully his emotional and desperate suggestion that people should just walk out was not well thought out. But that sense of desparation when people have been there for six days without help is understandable.

For me it was a video that communicated the emotion, confusion, desparation and dire circumstances in the convention center (I don't watch TV much, especially for news) in an honest manner. It was a sincere cry for help, and illustrative of the effect the situation has even on journalists. I wasn't listening to the literalness of that suggestion as being the main point, and doubt Geraldo even meant it, except as a desparate alternative to doing nothing. He was obviously extremely upset and confused, and influenced by the chaos around him. The raw desperateness of his suggestion was indeed part of the point I took from it, moreso than the literal content.

I've never been a fan of Geraldo as a journalist/correspondent, or even taken him seriously in that way. Of course, it would have been dangerous if officials listened and thought, "Geraldo told us to make everybody walk! Let's do it!"

He's a damned fool that could have got people killed. If he is so emotionally out of control he should have been kept away. You may not have taken him seriously but just llike that other idiot Rush Limbaugh, people do take him seriously.

[DrSmellThis]

I'm also not taking "seriously" (i.e., literally) your statements that all the leaders, foolish journalists, and wayward looters should hang publically or be shot, though I totally applaud you for saying it! I do take it seriously as righteous passion.

I understand your anger, admire, and honor it. We're all entitled to it when something like this happens. I'm happy to see your passion, regardless of whether those would be my particular "solutions" in all those particular cases. It shows that you care, and shows your humanity.

And God forbid everything I've ever said to anyone when upset should determine reality. In everyday life people are responsible for hearing someone's emotions, and not only words, in a time of crisis or high emotionality. If officials listen to Geraldo and make everyone walk, they should all be shot and hung too!! ;)

None of this should be interpreted to mean that I would hire Geraldo to edit a small town newspaper. :rant:

[DrSmellThis]

Again, we have to plan for the next hurricane. We can't count on them being small storms these days. A lack of coordination among branches of government seems to me to be a crucial problem. Here are other examples:

http://www.sanluisobispo.com/mld/sanluisobispo/12551986.htm

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/03/STRANDED.TMP

Our leaders need to be held accountable immediately for better commication and coordination across government levels (including State to State as well) as regards emergency planning. This needs to be improved this week, not next year.

Coordination and cooperation needs to be built in, in an emergency; not dependent on extensive paperwork and forms being submitted and processed! (like with the buses from other States) All that red tape needs to be waved in an emergency. Critical files and resources need to be shared by everyone responsible for emergencies at all levels.

There must be one plan for each contingency with sections for the different agencies, and everybody needs to be working from the same plan. Officials should be given authority across agencies for certain things in emergencies. Lines of communication across agencies should be delineated ahead of time, and seen as equal in importance to intra-agency lines. These changes need to happen immediately. Some need to be effective as a matter of course, and others need to go into effect when an emergency is declared. Emergency needs to be declared before the destruction hits.

I thought the need for such coordination among agencies was supposed to be the whole reason for creating the department of Homeland Security!? If we have this much trouble whan we see the storm coming several days ahead of time, how do we think we are prepared for a huge, suprise terrorist attack?

[belgareth]

I'm also not taking "seriously" (i.e., literally) your statements that all the leaders, foolish journalists, and wayward looters should hang publically or be shot, though I totally applaud you for saying it! I do take it seriously as righteous passion.

I understand your anger, admire, and honor it. We're all entitled to it when something like this happens. I'm happy to see your passion, regardless of whether those would be my particular "solutions" in all those particular cases. It shows that you care, and shows your humanity.

And God forbid everything I've ever said to anyone when upset should determine reality. In everyday life people are responsible for hearing someone's emotions, and not only words, in a time of crisis or high emotionality. If officials listen to Geraldo and make everyone walk, they should all be shot and hung too!! ;)

None of this should be interpreted to mean that I would hire Geraldo to edit a small town newspaper. :rant:

You misunderstand me then. While a public hanging might not be the answer, I am a firm advocate of the death penalty. Whether you are or not, you surely agree that a person should be held responsible for all their actions, right? Therefore, if the actions result in the death of others, especially multiple others and when the actions were clearly negligent of their duties to those they serve, wouldn't it only be appropriate to punish them in accordance with the laws? Death penalty or not, holding all public officials responsible for how they fulfill their oath of office would have a tremendous effect on the way they perform their jobs. Right now, ALL public officials are held to a lower job performance standard that a trash collector. They should be held to higher standards than any other.

The same applies to people like Rivera. If his words had instigated a mass panic that killed 10 people, what would be the appropriate course of action? Wouldn't it be, in the very least, manslaughter? Personally, I wouldn't hire him to be the dogcatcher, he's a trouble maker and I wouldn't want him anywhere near me.

I personally don't have a problem with looters being shot on sight. And looters stealing what others must have to survive? There's no question in my mind. You may not like my outlook but at least I am clear on it.

[DrSmellThis]

Maybe I didn't misunderstand you in the way you just suggested, as demonstrated by your backing off your literal statements somewhat. On the other hand, I'm all for responsibility, as you should know; but am less eager to kill desperate, starving, homeless citizens, who steal food or clothes after a hurricane, in cold blood. Sounds like the Wild West to me, or worse -- not my personal ideal for America. There are other solutions, IMO, even given the chaos (e.g, provide all the people what they need to survive; arrest the thieves; makeshift holding pens. In some circumstances, I might even tell people to take what they need from the store, and share it with everyone else, until the relief comes.). I have a lot of compassion for some of the looters, honestly, and a tough time judging many of them. But if you want to stand by all your literal statements to the bitter end, I will admit to misunderstanding you.

I made a fairly strong, clear scientific and philosophical case against capital punishment recently here (http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14260); and don't need to revisit it in this thread.

[Jersey Girl]

I personally don't have a problem with looters being shot on sight. And looters stealing what others must have to survive? There's no question in my mind. You may not like my outlook but at least I am clear on it.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Mississippi is suffering too.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=special_coverage&id=3410800

Richard Gibbs was disgusted by reports of looting in New Orleans and upset at the lack of attention hurricane victims in his state were getting.
"I say burn the bridges and let 'em all rot there," he said. "We're suffering over here too, but we're not killing each other. We've got to help each other. We need gas and food and water and medical supplies."

[belgareth]

Thanks Jersey Girl. I kind thought you might see it.

Doc, we'll never agree on capitol punishment. So, what's new? That makes item 236...or was it 237? I lose count sometimes. :POKE: No problem as I doubt either your viewpoint or mine will achieve supremacy in our lifetimes. :thumbsup:

You cannot argue that I am not compassionate towards my fellow man. I can argue that my compassion toward the species is the motivator in my approach. The wild west idea had its merits though most people misunderstand how the west really was, as i suspect you do. Few settlers were helpless, most being well armed war veterans and criminals more often than not came to a rather abrupt bad end. To paraphrase somebody else, a well armed society is a polite society. Bad people don't live long that way.

That aside, and I doubt you'll agree with this either, my approach is darwinian in nature. The purpose of any social grouping within the animal kingdom is to protect the members of the group and to cull the bad actors. In nature that's done with claw and fang, in human society its supposedly done with laws. But you are aware that our legal system really doesn't serve that purpose and I do not believe it ever could. Love and care for our fellow man is a necessity but when a person chooses to step outside the social group or take advantage of members of that group they forfiet the protections inherent with membership. For most crimes against people opportunity for rehabilitation is right and appropriate but the callous disreagard for the right to life of another human being is never tolerable. Removing them from the gene pool is the best and least objectionable solution. As I've said before, I would consider it the utmost cruelty to cage a dog for the rest of its life, it would be more cruel to do that to a human being. Since I believe the human body is but a shell for the luminus being within, I see death as bit differently than you might.

To put it another way, I'd risk life and limb to help another human being without question or hesitation. If that human then raised their hand in an attempt to harm somebody else, I'd take their life just as readily. I am pretty clear cut on my point of view. The removal of a proven source of pain and suffering from society cannot be viewed as a crime where our current method is a crime. The removal of a person from the gene pool who disregards the rights of others to serve their own desires is not just improving the species, it is a duty to mankind.

Cold? Certainly, but what about life isn't?

[DrSmellThis]

You guessed right -- I'm definitely not a Darwinian in my life philosophy, and don't want to be cold. I want to have compassion for all individuals and help the evolutionarily disadvantaged and sick, even if they do harm, due to their ignorance or mental illness -- not just elimenate them, unless violence is absolutely necessary to prevent further immediate death due to their intended actions, as in self-defense.

Regarding Darwinism as social policy, for me it's not about making it better for those who "have it going for them" and elimenating the rest. It's not about what anyone gets, in fact.

In helping people who offend society, elevating them, and recognizing their inherent dignity and beauty even when they cannot, it elevates us all; elevates humanity immeasurably; creates a more human humanity; and teaches us all a million lessons, including compassion.

Everyone offends society in a billion ways, and a compassionate society does not just slice them out. I do not believe in judging others (say, as being "bad"). Judgement is just another form of ignorance or psychological malaise in my book.

I don't agree that the world is, and must be, a cold place. But when we strive for warmth in the midst of "coldness", we find it in unexpected places, and create it. For me a Darwinian approach just creates more coldness. We are creating ourselves. I believe humanity wants to go to a warmer place, down deep.

I like that you brought up spirituality, since its part of the big picture for most of us. I don't often discuss spirituality here, but am happy to when appropriate. I'm going to get a little deep and metaphorical, just because there's no other way to treat the ideas of spirituality fairly. So please listen with your "inner" ear, try not take any statement in isolation, and try not to pick apart the metaphoric language as if any word should be literally adequate to the task.

While your idea that since our bodies are mere shells for light beings it's OK to kill offenders helps me have more understanding and compassion for your position, I wouldn't choose to believe that way, as I don't want to create a cold, dark, stereotypic-animalistic humanity for the future of light beings. That general type of thinking can be used to justify many kinds of destruction.

In helping the "least" of us manifest their light in their current bodies, if you will, (by treating them as embodied light beings) we help ourselves (who are all "least" in some way or other) do as much, infusing the coldest places with warmth; merging the material with the heavenly, the dark with the light; the gross and the sublime; the diseased and the well, the human with the divine; the evil with the good; the ignorant with the wise, and the individual with the collective.

Meanwhile, as the material and the non-material (Other terms some use include form, organization, pattern, spirit, consciousness, energy, etc.) everywhere are merged in time and interact, the universe "speaks", in the form of the dimension we live in. All things we might know are manifest in that dynamic.

In other words, by bringing such related opposites together, we move in harmony with the ebb and flow of the universe; the structure of its perceivable purposes, and most fundamental processes.

We thereby say "yes" to all of existence. That "yes" empowers all other things for us. We "speak with" the universe, and "converse" with it on the most basic level possible in our dimension.

Conversely, elimenating society's offenders robs us all of as many opportunities to manifest light in the darkest places, and warmth in the cold places, etc., etc.

As a society we also miss an opportunity to reach a "critical mass" with infusion of spirit.

It "frustrates" the universe, as we know it. It is a "no" to all of existence, and to ourselves. It is self-defeating. It is therefore nonsense.

I didn't create these ideas out of thin air, but see them as common themes implicit in, and underneath, all human spiritual thought. With some variations, they are some of the main themes of spirituality, which reach underneath and permeate all religions and philosophies in history.

[Netghost56]

First off I think there's definitely two schools of thought here.

Doc, you sound like a Krishna. It's cool if you are, but if you're not you should read into it.

Belgareth, you're "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth." Don't deny it. It's a decent philosophy, one that I subscribe to, but it's lacking a few things. Like second chances, for one. Everyone deserves a second chance. And there isn't much room for seeing what's beneath the surface. Not that you're a shallow person, in fact I know you are all about second chances, but sometimes it's just not enough. For me there's always a grey area. It takes a master judge of character to be able to accurately recognize whether someone is "salvageable" or not. And some would say that only "one" can do that.

I think you both make good points. The problem with life in general is that there's no one solution to everything. And in some cases there's several answers to one question, all different and all correct.

I consider myself spiritual but I'm more philosophical. I won't get into all that since it requires another thread.

I believe in capital punishment, but only because we currently do not possess a better form of rehabilitation. One day I hope we will be able to individually work with everyone who needs help, but that will probably be far beyond our lifetimes. But I don't believe anyone is beyond help. I'm one of those people. I don't want anyone to give up on me.

I don't believe in "every man for himself", rather I believe in working together to better the group as a whole. Some would call that Communism. I call it Unity. I know Belgareth's argument is "What's the point of helping someone that's too lazy to do it himself?" For me, there's a reason why people don't do things. Most of the time it's obstacles. ANY kind of obstacle, be it physical, mental, etc. But if you remove the obstacle, then the person is able to achieve their goal. Sometimes they need help removing that obstacle. Working together as a group we can each help each other so that we're all able to achieve our goals. And if we achieve one goal then we have the chance (or choice) to pursue another. With no obstacles to hinder us, we have no limit to what we can achieve. That's the kind of world I want to live in.


Unfortunately, we live in a world that's slightly different. Now, this is NOT directed to anyone in particular, and this is only from my perspective. But there are people that prefer to go their own way. Nothing wrong with that. If it works for them, good. But if it doesn't, then there are options, namely the one I prefer. However, there is criticism by those who do it on their own and succeed. They might say to others, "You're lazy", or "You need to try harder". They must understand that's not always the case. Laziness is such a broad definition. A person can be physically lazy but have an active mind. Or a person can be very active but mentally lazy, by which they do not think beyond their own ideals. You can see this in everyday life: A guy, laid up at his parents home, spouting philosophy on a computer ( :D ), or a midlevel computer programmer who doesn't care about anything other than his next paycheck. Not the best examples, but that's off the top of my head. Maybe what I'm trying to say is: Ambition breeds Arrogance. Sometimes. And arrogance (and ignorance) to me should be a sin. I don't believe that anyone on this planet is superior to the rest. I find that the whole "balance" philosophy makes alot of sense to me. Ever hear the phrase, "The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his ass?" Well, a bit crude and vague, but to me it speaks of balance. I said once before that I felt that people in high places have probably sinned alot more than people at the bottom. That's not black and white, but it's not unbelieveable either. I think that sometimes getting to the top of the ladder isn't such a good idea. Story after story has been told of the moral sacrifice people have taken in order to achieve their dreams, but then is the dream lacking because of their sins? I think so. To me, it's like cheating. They arrived at an obstacle, and instead of working around it, they cheated to get ahead. That makes the goal less fufilling and cheap. Don't you think that its more worthwhile to stand at the top of the mountain and know that you've taken every step? Perhaps you were with a group. One carried the rope, the other carried the air, etc. You all worked together, but you individually achieved success.

I have a poster that I made with my digital programs: It depicts a silhouette standing on the summit of a mountain with its arms raised in victory. In big letters I wrote "Effort" and underneath I have a Haitian proverb that states, "Beyond the mountains there are mountains again." I think there's enough in this big old world to keep us occupied, but if we get dragged down by the first task we attempt, we're never going to get anywhere. Work together, don't waste time, and once the superficial stuff is out of the way, you can start on the cool stuff :) .

Argh, looks like I rambled again...:frustrate

[belgareth]

Doc,

The very philosophy you espouse is creating a cold and dangerous world for the innocents. Why should those who only wish to live in peace with their world by subject to the depredations of those who deem themselves outside the rules? Why should those who deem themselves outside the rules of society not be treated in accordance with their own rules? They made the choice of how they live. In most cases I am all for rehabilitation but not under any conditions for those who commit certain crimes such as murder, rape, child molesting and that class of criminal.

You can quote case studies until your fingers fall off and I can argue them as long. The classic flaw in those case studies is always the same. John Doe commits murder in 1960. He sits in prison for 25 years while we feed, clothe and shelter him and finance bootless appeal after bootless appeal. Finally, after all those years, if he hasn't died of old age, desease or cronic stupidity he is executed. Gee, no small wonder it doesn't work.

Look at another few studies. Florida became a concealed carry state. Prior to that they had a huge problem with armed robbery, car jackings and so on. Those violent crimes dropped by more than 75% in one year! Ok, there were a few fatalities, so? When you put yourself in that arena you are implicitly taking that risk and have every right to do so. If somebody reacts badly to your desire to rob them and kills you, that was your risk to take and your responsibility for the results. Is society not improved by the loss of a criminal? Are other criminals not deterred from trying the same thing? You can say what you like but the facts say otherwise. There are several other examples but they are all the same. When you stop coddling people they start taking responsibility for themselves and society is improved.

To sum it up, for those willing to try or in need, anything I can do I will do. Those who choose to sit and do nothing, the very bare minimum needed to survive, nothing extra other than opportunity to change their path. For those who would use violence to take from others without regard for the life, limb or security of those others, nothing. In each and every case, they have taken their lives into their own hands and choose their course. No excuses accepted.

A slightly different example with a comparison. A guy climbs a mountain, falls off and splits his head open. No sympathy here at all because he decided to climb the mountain. The difference between them is that he did no harm to anybody but himself. His choice, his skull.

When you get right down to the nuts and bolts, your belief requires government dictate morals where mine allows society to dictate morals. Yours reduces freedom for the sake of percieved security and social order. Mine gives freedom at the price of responsibility. Frankly, this was a more civilized world before we made all those laws to protect us. I expect government to be the servant of the public where it is now the oppressor of the public stealing our livelihoods from us. My philosophy would hold all government employees responsible for their actions every moment they served the people.

Netghost,

You've missed the point here too. I don't believe in vengence and bear no hatred or animosity towards them. As I said, they've decided on their own course of action. Now they can live and die by the consequences of their actions. If I help somebody I do it with no expectation of reward, if somebody dies by my hand there is no feeling of vengence. An eye for an eye is a silly stance.

[DrSmellThis]

Honestly, Belgareth, you have indicated little understanding of my philosophy here, except that it is somehow against capital punishment and you are against it. So you seem hard pressed to make a valid pronouncement about it.

For example, I am not saying innocent peace loving citizens are just subject to outlaws. (For that matter your stance does not make them not subject to outlaws.) Far from it, in multiple respects. I also do not believe "government should dictate morals", or that governments shouldn't be responsible to the public (I've posted tons of things to the contrary) and nothing in my philosophy implies that.

Since I cannot build on anything I've said previously, but must still handle all accumulated issues as if for the first time, I cannot pretend this is an adequate reply to the above post. Only rhetoric is possible at this point. Instead I refer others to read above in this thread, and in the "poster child" thread I linked above, all of which presented crucial issues that remain unaddressed. Attentive readers will note that Netghost just made some interesting points which also remain unaddressed.

So it remains to be seen whether your position can stand up to rational scrutiny other than your own. I used to play chess against myself as a kid, and never lost a game.

Rhetorically speaking, then, an "absolute responsibility", dog eat dog, "free for all", anarchist position looks a bit extreme. There are unaddressed problems there with issues of opportunity, ability, learning, knowledge, mental illness, ignorance, maturity, interdependence, human understanding, human error, growth, compassion, freedom, and respect for life. There is an apparent profound misunderstanding of choice, which is a problem in a philosophy of choice. For example, if a depressed person wants to kill themselves, it is a typical symptom of their disease, and not a free choice. I will help them, even if it means "restricting their freedom" temporarily for their own good. I know from experience that they virtually always thank you later. So it is simplistic to think everybody always "just deserves what they get" if some element of their choice was involved. People often stumble, and often need help getting up, rather than deserving to be stampeded. That's life, and society. And it will never be perfect.

This "Darwinian" world apparently represents a primitive, uncivilized, violent, unjust, unfeeling, and frightening society, where an awful lot of people would fall by the wayside to rot, and the "evolutionary winners" left standing, who will possess everything thinking they have a right to it, will have won something dubious.

Life before civilization was no more perfect than civilized life, even though every civilization has its problems as well as having produced great things. Indeed, there are good reasons humanity has consistently, freely, everywhere, chosen to civilize itself. Civilization has always represented a kind of freedom, and opportunity for freedom, not the lack of it.

From your personal position it is of course different, but we still don't know why others should feel that way.

[DrSmellThis]

I believe in capital punishment, but only because we currently do not possess a better form of rehabili