Androstadienone Ineffective If VNO Is Blocked

[Irish]

I knew I would have

to do this...

Mr. Kohl did indeed post a reference to an article published by the same group. That article

in J. Neuroscience may be read at:

http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content...urcetype=HWCIT
It doesn't discuss the VNO because it isn't about the VNO.

What I posted is a

SEPARATE ISSUE. The same group is presenting preliminary evidence at the ECRO conference in favor of a VNO

role.

The SAME AUTHORS that Mr. Kohl cited about cortisol effects are presenting evidence, in another forum,

supporting the idea of a functioning VNO. Get it?!?

[DrSmellThis]

I have to admit I haven't

reviewed the research on this in a while. Human pheromone research moves too slowly for my taste. Someday I'll do

another review and catch up. JVK is the one who seems to keep track of every study that comes out.

But my

recollection from a couple years ago is simply that research to date has been inconclusive, except for the "Erox

commissioned/related" studies, several of which reportedly suggest evidence of a "vague" effect (without

articulating a pathway or process).

Specifically, there has been no evidence to suggest a neural pathway for

the VNO (a more recent study or two has addressed this); and evidence of its activity has been contradictory.



The prevailing wisdom was simply that it is not theoretically necessary to posit the VNO to exist, in order to

explain a detailed pheromone effect. You can get there with standard olfaction. So some researchers felt it was a

waste of time to focus on the VNO.

That was different from saying categorically that there is no active VNO.

Last I checked I was not convinced the VNO has no role in olfaction. Maybe the intellectual scenario has changed

recently, and I'd change my mind.

But I've remained curious, partly because the organ would seem to be

evolutionarily adaptive for some scenarios if it did exist; since you'd be bypassing the

complexities/inefficiencies of standard olfaction.

I'd like to see a comprehensive lit review on the issue,

although Erox and gang (Berliner, et al) have felt little obligation to contribute to the scientific community,

thinking they are sitting on the golden goose. Then I could give a more intelligent opinion.

Again, I'd still

like to know how they isolated the VNO from standard olfaction in the most recent study alluded to at the beginning

of the thread. The procedure to do this is not obvious to me. That seems the most obvious area for initial critical

review, methodologically.

[jvkohl]

I'd like to

see a comprehensive lit review on the issue...

DST: If you want the .pdf of the article at the URL

below, I will need your current email address.



[url]http://www.haworthpress.com/store/ArticleAbstract.asp?sid=F1AJ71WMKCP48HTMPW51HDT2GP 7Q5DS7&ID=90566[/ur

l]

Again, I'd still like to know how they isolated the VNO from standard olfaction in

the most recent study alluded to at the beginning of the thread. The procedure to do this is not obvious to me. That

seems the most obvious area for initial critical review, methodologically.

Isolation of the VNO was

initially linked to a patented process/delivery system as I recall. This was seen by many researchers to be a 2nd

red flag with regard to findings that could not be independently replicated on picogram amounts of "active"

compounds.

In the most recently reported published findings: "Thirty milligrams of AND..., were deposited in

pure form into a 60ml... opaque jar, to be smelled by participants."

From a human VNO activation to effect

approach, it's picogram amounts and unreplicated data. From the more current non-VNO approach we're seeing effects

with (let me check my math... uh?) -- a lot more of the compound.

It's hard for me to imagine any woman

ever being naturally exposed to 20 sniffs of 30 milligrams of AND. So, while it's good to see reports of hormonal,

mood, and arousal change, I'm not sure how all this translates to product development.

Seems we've now gone

from activating the VNO with picogram amounts of AND, blocking the VNO and showing that it makes a difference

(though the data may not be published or replicated) and finally come round to attacking the human

olfactory/pheromonal processing system (sans VNO mention?) with massive doses of chemical.

James V.

Kohl
author of a less recent review at: http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm

[Irish]

I get it perfectly. Now

you do too!

[tounge]

I get it perfectly.

Now you do too!

I think Jim Kohl already had it.

[DrSmellThis]

I get it

perfectly. Now you do too!

I think there may still be some misunderstanding about the studies, as regards the

present discussion. I know I didn't "get it" at first gander.

[DrSmellThis]

DST: If you want

the .pdf of the article at the URL below, I will need your current email address.



http://

www.haworthpress.com/store/ArticleAbstract.asp?sid=F1AJ71WMKCP48HTMPW51HDT2GP 7Q5DS7&ID=90566





Isolation of the VNO was initially linked to a patented process/delivery system as I recall. This was seen by many

researchers to be a 2nd red flag with regard to findings that could not be independently replicated on picogram

amounts of "active" compounds.

In the most recently reported published findings: "Thirty milligrams of AND...,

were deposited in pure form into a 60ml... opaque jar, to be smelled by participants."

From a human VNO

activation to effect approach, it's picogram amounts and unreplicated data. From the more current non-VNO approach

we're seeing effects with (let me check my math... uh?) -- a lot more of the compound.

It's hard for me to

imagine any woman ever being naturally exposed to 20 sniffs of 30 milligrams of AND. So, while it's good to see

reports of hormonal, mood, and arousal change, I'm not sure how all this translates to product development.



Seems we've now gone from activating the VNO with picogram amounts of AND, blocking the VNO and showing that it

makes a difference (though the data may not be published or replicated) and finally come round to attacking the

human olfactory/pheromonal processing system (sans VNO mention?) with massive doses of chemical.

James V.

Kohl
author of a less recent review at:

http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm

* I'm interested specifically mainly in just in reviews of the VNO studies. I realize there isn't that much out

there. Unfortunately, most of it was behind closed doors.

* I didn't see anything in the abstract about dosage.

You'd think they'd vary it. It's not hard methodologically. You wouldn't even need more subjects.

* The

problem of isolating the VNO in this study is different that was addressed by Erox's patented delivery and

measurement methods, if that's what you are referring to. The procedures are very different.

* I just think the

disinterest problem is that the VNO is correctly thought of as a secondary issue, compared to the importance of

pheromones for humans in general; and researchers have more basic questions for now. That to me explains the lack of

interest. In the big picture, human pheromone research is still in the infantile stage.

* Obviously, that reason

for disinterest doesn't apply to the Erox gang, who apparently believe worlds of Exxon-like profits await them if

they focus on the VNO.

[jvkohl]

Obviously,

that reason for disinterest doesn't apply to the Erox gang, who apparently believe worlds of Exxon-like profits

await them if they focus on the VNO.

If the Natural Attraction site (formerly Erox site) is any

indication, they have indeed given up on the human VNO, since there is no longer any mention of it in their product

advertising.

JVK
creator: Scent of Eros products

[Irish]

Obviously I don’t know if humans have functioning VNO’s (Meredith’s review a few years back was rather pessimistic,

and convincing). And I really don’t care. But here’s why I think it makes sense to investigate it.

Those

money-hungry, VNO-obsessed, commercial villain scientists at Erox did something amazing. With their secret

contraptions, secret methods, often-doubted motives and findings they managed to identify the powerful pheromonal

substances AND and EST! Years before the brain scan validation!!

We didn’t really believe them at the time,

questioned their objectivity because of vested interests (they’re not the only ones with vested interests) – but lo

and behold, those $-grubbing bastards were right!! By looking at VNO activation they correctly identified powerful

sexually-dimorphic pheromones. But it was only after later brain scan experiments that everybody is now on board,

and trumpeting the power of androstadienone. Erox could have (and did) tell us that years ago.

I’m not

defending Erox – we were right to be leery of their claims (and anyone else making $ off their claims). But I am

pointing out that Erox was RIGHT in their claims (some of them so far, anyway), and they based their claims and

research directly on the idea of a functioning VNO. Maybe they are on to something…

So why not keep an open

mind, and see if that organ in our nose is doing actually something after all.

Here’s my (flawed) VNO

experiment – see if folks who’ve had rhinoplasty respond to androstadienone in the now scientifically-accepted

manner. Since a nose job often obliterates the VNO, you should have many androstadienone-immune women to check it

out on, if the VNO is indeed the conduit.

The truth (whatever it may be) will make us free, if not rich…

[jvkohl]

With their secret

contraptions, secret methods, often-doubted motives and findings they managed to identify the powerful pheromonal

substances AND and EST!

Twenty sniffs of 30 milligrams AND to get a measurable effect on hormones and

mood does not suggest that AND is a naturally powerful pheromonal substance.

By looking at VNO

activation they correctly identified powerful sexually-dimorphic pheromones. But it was only after later brain scan

experiments that everybody is now on board, and trumpeting the power of androstadienone.

Who's

trumpeting the power? It's always a good idea to find out who is saying what and why they are saying it, especially

when controversial (more recent) findings abound.

I’m not defending Erox – we were right to

be leery of their claims (and anyone else making $ off their claims).

And anyone attempting to make

$ off their "dated" claims?

But I am pointing out that Erox was RIGHT in their claims (some

of them so far, anyway), and they based their claims and research directly on the idea of a functioning VNO. Maybe

they are on to something…

They got the concept WRONG, at a very basic level, and now appear to have

abandoned their conceptualization.

So why not keep an open mind, and see if that organ in

our nose is doing actually something after all.

When people spend millions developing a concept

(e.g., human pheromones acting through the VNO) and subsequently abandon the concept--how long do you think we

should continue to keep an open mind?

Here’s my (flawed) VNO experiment – see if folks

who’ve had rhinoplasty respond to androstadienone in the now scientifically-accepted manner. Since a nose job often

obliterates the VNO, you should have many androstadienone-immune women to check it out on, if the VNO is indeed the

conduit.

Surgeons were advised by publication of the following article to avoid VNO damage, and

determine whether prior damage had been done.

Garcia-Velasco, J., & Garcia-Casas, S. (1995) Nose surgery and

the vomeronasal organ. Aesth. Plast. Surg., 19, 451-454.

In a litigious society like that in the US, I

expected to hear that a plastic surgeon was sued for VNO damage long before now. I've not learned of a single case,

which suggests that your study participants might be very difficult to find.

The involvement of another

potential pathway is becoming an area of more focus. Time for some of us to move on to studies of the nervus

terminalis (terminal nerve/zeroeth cranial nerve)--something not yet fully considered, and more in line with the

concept of human pheromones eliciting hormonal effects and conditioning behavioral affects.

James V.

Kohl
author -- The Mind's Eyes: Human Pheromones, Neuroscience and Male Sexual Preferences.

[jvkohl]

I knew I would have to

do this...

The SAME AUTHORS that Mr. Kohl cited about cortisol effects are presenting evidence, in another

forum, supporting the idea of a functioning VNO. Get it?!?

I suspected I would have to do

this...

The same authors presented (note: past tense) preliminary (note: waiting for final results),

unpublished data at a conference prior to finalizing their study, and after finalizing it published it with no

mention of the human VNO. What I "get" (from this) is that their preliminary data did not support the human VNO

approach. On the off chance that it did, we will see a report from the same group that mentions the human VNO. Get

it?!?

James V. Kohl
author/creator: The Scent of Eros

[DrSmellThis]

The same

authors presented (note: past tense) preliminary (note: waiting for final results), unpublished data at a conference

prior to finalizing their study, and after finalizing it published it with no mention of the human VNO. What I "get"

(from this) is that their preliminary data did not support the human VNO approach. On the off chance that it did, we

will see a report from the same group that mentions the human VNO.
James V. Kohl
author/creator: The Scent of

Eros

My understanding was rather that the series of studies is not close to being finalized; but that

preliminary data suggested the active role of the human VNO, with a big caveat.

You may have been thinking

about the intial preliminary study being "finalized".

But that was, apparently, always intended as one of a

series, designed to address precisely the methodological problem of isolating the VNO from standard olfaction. That

takes a while to do correctly, even though they appear to have addressed a part of it already. It was the

first issue that occured to me, and no doubt the researchers as well. They're taking care of business, I suspect.



In the mean time we have some highly intriguing initial results; that are none the less critically vulnerable to

the criticism that their "VNOblock" may have interfered with standard olfaction -- for now. Oh well, sucks to be a

scientist. One has to be patient.

I don't believe we should interpret this normal delay as indicative of those

researchers' enthusiasm for the VNO one way or the other. They are moving forward with their expensive program,

apparently. So they must remain somewhat enthused about the possibility of a role for the VNO.

[jvkohl]

I don't

believe we should interpret this normal delay as indicative of those researchers' enthusiasm for the VNO one way or

the other. They are moving forward with their expensive program, apparently. So they must remain somewhat enthused

about the possibility of a role for the VNO.

I've found no recent indication that any researcher who

presents at conferences or publishes in peer reviewed journals has any enthusiasm for the possibility of a

functional human VNO. For example, I just reviewed abstracts from the 40th Annual Meeting of the Japanese

Association for the Study of Taste and Smell, which may be the most recent olfactory conference from which abstracts

are available. It's highly unusual for researchers to hide their work from other researchers, even briefly--as

indicated by the ERCO abstract Irish posted. When the group then publishes without mention of the VNO, it seems more

likely to me that they, too, have lost interest/enthusiasm.

JVK
author: The Scent of Eros: Mysteries of

Odor in Human Sexuality

[DrSmellThis]

I've found no

recent indication that any researcher who presents at conferences or publishes in peer reviewed journals has any

enthusiasm for the possibility of a functional human VNO. For example, I just reviewed abstracts from the 40th

Annual Meeting of the Japanese Association for the Study of Taste and Smell, which may be the most recent olfactory

conference from which abstracts are available. It's highly unusual for researchers to hide their work from other

researchers, even briefly--as indicated by the ERCO abstract Irish posted. When the group then publishes without

mention of the VNO, it seems more likely to me that they, too, have lost interest/enthusiasm.

JVK
author: The

Scent of Eros: Mysteries of Odor in Human Sexuality

I don't see them "hiding" anything. They posted what

they found so far and told us further research was ongoing; and why. THis seems typical rather than unusual, unless

I'm missing something. It wouldn't have made sense for them to mention the VNO, when their series of VNO studies

was not completed. I bet the authors/researchers would agree.

It also wouldn't make sense for them to rush

ahead to publish the preliminary study when it answers only part of the basic scientific question they are asking.

Waiting is the professional --and usual -- thing to do.