http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract
n
" In humans, the VNO does not exist, at least not in its complexity."
What do you think this means to
people who market pheromones based on human VNO research/reactions?
JVK
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract
n
" In humans, the VNO does not exist, at least not in its complexity."
What do you think this means to
people who market pheromones based on human VNO research/reactions?
JVK
According to the abstract:
Do you think this means that people who have their VNOs surgically removedQuote:
...Histochemically, [the nasal passage] is lined with a remarkable pseudostratified epithelium, the nature
and significance of which are still unclear. Recent studies indicate that pheromone-like compounds are most likely
registered at the level of olfactory receptor cells, rendering the chemical information system more independent of
specific organ structures.
are still capable of responding to enhanced pheromone signatures?
Have any studies been done on pheromone
receptivity in people with modified or removed VNO versus people with unaltered VNOs?
I ask because I may end up
having some sinus surgery and I have been wondering what sort of impact that might have on me.
Just curious, at
this stage.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............
intresting.
there has to be something thats picking up these pheromones tho, VNO or not.
None that I know about, and not likely to be done since the focus of human pheromoneQuote:
Originally Posted by Friendly1
research is moving rapidly away from the issue of the human VNO. However, this could easily end up being decided by
judge or jury in cases that seek financial "damages" from plastic surgeons who are not familiar with the concept of
human pheromones.
JVK
everything contributes
to why we might eat something...
sight,smell,what we have heard about its properties,memories, not just what it
tastes like. maybe we are picking up 'mones on several subtle layers...those aware of their sensitivity to the
difference of each person's signiture probably see it like a 6th sense...
JVK, in your experienceQuote:
Originally Posted by jvkohl
is it possible to control the amount of testosterone increase, or is it individual no matter how much
pheromone you use to increase it? same with leutinizing hormone......
Any increase will be affected
by natural feedback loops.
For example.
Increase testosterone -> increases estrogen -> turns down
testosterone production.
LEF sells some products that can block the conversion but some other feedback loop seems
to kick in after several months and they stop working.
Clearly females periods falling into sync indicates some
airborne chemical having a major physiological effect.
Pheremones may not work.
Or they may not work on some and
work well on others.
Or the products that claim to have pheremones may really be water.
---
However... you can
TEST your testosterone and free testosterone levels with blood tests.
1) Go to LEF and buy the appropriate test.
Take the form they send you to a local blood draw site which will send it to QUEST diagnostics. There is your base
level.
2) Buy another test. Apply copulins. Get the test done again (at the same time of day). Are your
testosterone levels different?
I recommend LEF since it is an inexpensive way to get blood tests and you won't
have to argue with your doctor or insurance company about them.
(LEF = life extension foundation--
www.lef.org)
You will have some tricky bits.
1) exercize effects testosterone.
2) If you are
around sexy women flirting with you, that is going to raise your testosterone level.
So make sure that those
conditions are the same for both tests.
Love to hear your results.
The hormonal changes areQuote:
Originally Posted by Lor
referred to as unconscious effects, as in a cause and effect relationship. Pheromones "effect" hormones, and this is
not something that it consciously controlled. Pheromones also have an unconscious affect on behavior that is
associated with their effect on hormones. This "affect" is unlike the cause and effect relationship between
pheromones and hormones. Their "affect on behavior" can be consciously controlled.
All this is detailed
further in a review article that will be published in the Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality later this
year.
I'm fairly certain that the review will help clarify issues like this, though it is very
technical.
JVK
Testosterone levels peak at approximately 0730 and hit their low point at approximatelyQuote:
Originally Posted by maxo-texas
1930. So, if the time of sample collection varies (as it usually does) your results may mean nothing, despite
attempts to control for other variables--like stress, food ingestion, psychotherapeutic drug use, etc. To attempt to
show individually significant changes would be very difficult. That's why researchers try to involve as many study
participants as they can find/fund, and also attempt to control the variables. Simply put, DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!
Or, if you do, realize that you might need to read a few books on the topic before you can interpret the results,
which are virtually meaningless at the individual level. On the other hand, it's not a bad idea for men over 50 to
have their testosterone level checked if they're having specific symptoms like fatigue, low sex drive, etc. Studies
are now finding many more instances of low testosterone levels than were predicted only a few years
ago.
JVK
This is what I just realized through testing of EW. You have said it in a much more eloquent manner. The complexQuote:
Originally Posted by jvkohl
psychological evaluations people have made about different pheromones seem to be an over kill. Pheromones cause
hormone changes. Hormone changes affect behavior but are only one component in the grand scheme of things.
maxotexas,Quote:
You will
have some tricky bits.
1) exercize effects testosterone.
2) If you are around sexy women flirting with you,
that is going to raise your testosterone level.
So make sure that those conditions are the same for both
tests.
Love to hear your results.
i wonder if a sexy woman flirts with me, and i am a
girl, will it still raise my testosterone level :think: .....
thanksQuote:
All this is detailed further in a
review article that will be published in the Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality later this year.
I'm fairly
certain that the review will help clarify issues like this, though it is very technical.
JVK
jvk,looking forward to it (and hoping i can wrap my head around the technicalities)
That would be an interesting
study to observe, Lor.
Jvk,
Yes- I'm well aware of the daily cycle. I'm a teste cancer survivor and the one
cowboy finally got tired last year so I'm using androgel for supplementation.
It worked *fabulously* (anxiety was
gone, night sweats gone, fuzzy thinking gone, and felt like a unicorn again). Then my doctor lowered the
prescription when I went on Medco. So I argued it with him and went in *late* in the day for that particular blood
test.
And as I said above in my parent post "Get the test done again (at the same time of day)."
My point is
this. If copulins raise levels by 50% very quickly- then you should be able to see a very noticable affect if you
control for the other variables (hell- get two tests on the same day with copulins between them).
However, all
your points are valid-- there are many factors involved and a given person's sample size == 1 person as opposed to
a formal study with 100 people that controls for a lot of variables.
For now.. I was willing to drop 160 on
products here and I'm testing them out. I think I've seen some results. I'm a bit interested in adding NPA and
a copulin next (the thought being to use the copulin once things are fairly well underway to intensify things).
Theoretically, in women, the effect of pheromones from the opposite sex on hormones is onQuote:
Originally Posted by Lor
luteinizing hormone/follicle stimulating hormone ratios that favor increased estradiol levels that prompt a
luteinizing hormone surge accompanied by an increase in testosterone -- all of which depend somewhat on menstrual
cycle phase in the absence of oral contraceptive or hormone replacement use.
All of the above contribute to
men's overall lack of knowledge about the complex behaviors of typical or atypical women. By the middle of next
week I will have figured out all of women's behavior, I think. But I've been thinking like that for many years and
through three marriages.
JVK
so testosterone based
pheromones indirectly increase testosterone in women?
I don't have the references handy,
but recent studies have found that in humans the pheromone receptors have migrated to the olfactory epithelium.
This was demonstrated through several methods:
- pheromone receptor RNA was found in olfactory cells
there, showing that the receptors are being produced in that area
- studies were done with people who had
naturally blocked (with polyps) or artificially blocked olfactory centers, and it was verified that they did not
exhibit the hypothalamus pheromone response as shown via PET scans
- this test was repeated on people whose
VNO was naturally or artificially blocked, but whose olfactory epithelium was not blocked, and it was verified that
they did still exhibit the same hypothalamus pheromone response as people with no blockages.
Those seem like
rather conclusive results. Forget the VNO (at least in humans)!
If you manage to pull this off and figure out a way to control the urge toQuote:
By the middle of next week
I will have figured out all of women's behavior, I think. But I've been thinking like that for many years and
through three marriages.
shop,men all over the world will worship the ground you walk on.
Time for a bump.
Since june,
I've
experimented with a314 (nothing super obvious).
I've become absolutely convinced SOE is the real deal.
Same for
A4.2 or NPA (i.e. -none).
Same for copulins (EW) on me.
I'm experimenting currently with Beta-Est with good
results during gf's period (she reports her discomfort goes away when she's around me).
Also time for some others to do google searches and find:Quote:
Originally Posted by tounge
"Pursuant to a joint venture
between Demeter Fragrance Library, Inc. and Human Pheromone Science, Inc., we present the Natural Attraction
Collection by Demeter Fragrance Library, demonstrating the powerful combination of aromachology and synthetic human
pheromones."
--------------------------------------------------------------
If the joint venture led to a
product "spinoff" why is there no mention of the human VNO in how "Natural Attraction" products
work?
--------------------------------------------------------------
If a new marketing ploy drops the old
VNO marketing ploy, doesn't this say something about marketing ploys in general? Or maybe I'm just biased by
"real" science.
JVK
i think both approaches could be
interpreted as marketing ploys, those that believe it to exist and include it in thier marketing and those that
advocate that it doesnt and include it in thier marketing
The odd thing is, most consumers
don't give rat's tail about the how and why of human pheromone receptors. I don't! Okay, maybe a little. They
only care if the product works for them, i.e., enhances their social and sexual status. So weren't not talking
about any real market advantage for the lack or presense of a VNO.
Most marketing is a massive waste of
resourses. I TiVo out every TV ad and automatically ignore magazine, web and roadside ads. I bet most new pheromone
users rarely get further than "gets you laid 'n respected at work" in product ad copy. Further info about the VNO
or receptors in our main olfactory organs will only be read by a few rather geeky consumers.
what is tivo?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gegogi
i hate tv ads, web ads are just as annoying, magazine ads...well
depends on the ad, i like photography and style, so a nice chick in a nice dress is eye candy in a glossy mag is ok,
and a magazine is not as intrusive as audio or visual marketing. the amount of garbage that gets thrown at us via tv
and radio etc makes me sick!
i havnt turned on my tv in years, all these people buying these fancy tv sets,
giant plasma etc etc, for what??? to watch rubbish tv ads....and game shows...
i think im going to become a
hermit and leave society...
the vno is as defunt as tits on
a male, even if it exists, big deal!!!!! it doesnt tickle my fancy.
This is a long post, so if you're not interested in the order offered at the
title, just skip to the part saying "Anyway, I DO have my own question".
maxo-texas, please do not skip
:box:
Didn't I see youQuote:
Originally posted by maxo-texas:
I'm experimenting currently with Beta-Est with good
results during gf's period (she reports her discomfort goes away when she's around me).
post on some other thread, that you discovered
it was androstAnone you've been testing? :think:
I'm just asking for other reader's sake...Quote:
Originally posted by
maxo-texas:
Sigh.
I've been testing this too and thought it was beta-est.
The results have been
very good- especially around her period. From her feedback, her discomfort goes away very quickly after she gets
together with me since i've started wearing this around her.
no harm ment:o
Some order for the VNO curious:
Now, I've seen three different
threads discussing if the VNO is a functional or non-functional organ. I may be wrong, but IMHO, some people might
need some order here, and I find no better time than the now, to organize, so...
ecxept for this current thread,
I've seen one specific post, that is (currently) the last one on the second thread talking about this, AND at the
same post there's a link to
the third thread talking
about this topic. Here's that post:
Don't be mad people... I was simply reading all these andQuote:
Originally posted by jvkohl, on a thread named
Hot Damn, Androstanone!:
Research
results have repeatedly shown that what has been repeatedly referred to as the human VNO is merely some vestigial
pit(s) that are not connected to anything and not necessary for induction of pheromonal effects in humans. Non-human
animal studies also show that the mammalian VNO is not necessary. I've cited several studies (recent) in postings
to "Pheromone Research." If you want to debate the issue, its time to cite any recent study for support of this
long-outdated conceptualization of how pheromones work. And perhaps you will
declare any marketing interests you might have that focus attention on the VNO.
JVK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)
JVK, check out my responses to
the initial posting on androstanone. It is proven to act at the VNO. (although I know you dispute the relevance of
the VNO, I strongly beg the differ)
http://www.love-scent.com/for
um/sh...t=androstanone
thought it might help other readers a great deal, if they get some order :o
Anyway, I do have my
own question.
JVK... I personally, have not the slightest background about the VNO. Before reading in
the L-S forums, I had no idea the VNO is even a word, or it even existed. Back then I couldn't care less.
But now
that I've read all three of the mentioned threads, I'm very curious about it. It does seem to mean something
whether it's functional or not.
So I ask you this:
Assuming that indeed, the VNO is a NON-functional organ
(btw, in that case, I recon that it's a physical remnant of a time when it did work:think:?)...
How
DO pheromones work, if not through the VNO?
And I'll be more specific, just to prevent a missunderstanding
of the question, or an answer which concerns only a variation of the question (as this question can be interpreted
in many ways):JVK, I want to thank you for keeping this debate alive,
- How does our sense of smell, input into our brain, the pheromonal signature of another? (be
that signature as it may)- Is it our brain that separates the signature into different type of pheromones, and
tells us what they are? Or is it rather that the different pheromones are percieved (i.e. inputed) separatly; and if
so: How?- You mentioned before, if I'm not mistaken, that the pheromones work (in some levels at least), without
a thing to do with their smell (nor the percievers' sense of smell).
If so, am I to understand that the nose, and
any type of smell-sensatory we might have & I might not be aware of), can sense not only smell, but other types of
chimical compounds & their construction (such as pheromones & others)?
[I SO want the answer for this to be a "Yes"
:D].- Feel more than free to add any other informarion you might feel to be relevant to the question. But
please do try and answer the sub-questions mentioned.
and trying to answer with sciense & reason :)
I really appritiate you reading this far (that goes out to anybody
still reading this lol). And anybody who can give me some sensable, understandable, and reasonable answers...
PLEASE... do :cool:
This topic is way interesting. I, personaly, thank averybody here that gives (or has given)
some answers\questions\views on the matter :thumbsup:
Didn't see it before, but here it
is:
http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=
1695:run:
And guys, about ads... I agree with bonzies' approch... I don't even own a tv. I just see
whatever cultural candy I want on my comp. Like Samurai Champloo for example :D
I do wish I'd have a plasma
for my comp. though lol.
And gegogi, I don't really care about the VNO much either... as for the `mone ptoducts
out there.
But I AM interested in it scientificaly. Aren't you? ;)
Nope. Well maybe mildly curious. I try to spend my main energy making music,Quote:
But I AM interested in it
scientificaly. Aren't you?
images and love...
my head hurts after reading thro
some of those articles but my understanding is much higher now then when i started using pheromones so good work
jvkohl
LOL... Nice one...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gegogi
I
might start doing the same ;)