Essence of Alpha Male

[CAtriathlete]

even

when it started with research, discussion took it to individual opinions, which are great for the individuals to

whom they apply, and great for some people who want to discuss opinions. I'll opt out of further discussion of

opinions and continue to pursue the science.

James V. Kohl
author/creator: The Scent of Eros

James-

I respect you a lot, I am a huge fan of SOE, and your input to this forum has clearly been invaluable

over the years.

Having said that, I must say your response is confusing to me, because it seems dismissive and

self-righteous. I was trained as a scientist too (molecular biology)-- worked at Cold Spring Harbor Lab at one point

in fact. And I think it is absurd to believe that science does not include opinions. Is that what you were trying to

say?

Scientists are some of the most opinionated, arguementative people I've met. There is constant debate in

scientific journals based on opinion. Interpretation of data and results always involves judgment and opinion at

some level. Science is not pure or objective. Science is a human paradigm, and humans are by nature subjective.



And no less so when you are dealing with the effects of chemicals on human behvior. This is anything but

objective. Even randomized, double-blind studies are subject to interpretation. The conclusions of any research are

never fact, but are the opinion of the researcher--theoretically they are based on pure logic, but if that were the

case we wouldn't have so much debate in every field of science.

We could take this into a whole debate over

epistemology (how we know what we know), but actually I don't even think we were giving opinions anyway. We were

describing anecdotal evidence that seems to contradict the science you were sharing, and we were simply asking how

you might explain this anecdotal evidence in light of the research.

The fact is that NOT ALL women lose their

sex drive when they lose their cycle, so we were curious how that fits into the science you are trying to share. I

don't think that is expressing opinion so much as trying to understand how the sophisticated study you were sharing

fits in with other observations.

Respectfully,

-CAt

[jvkohl]

James-
I think it is absurd to believe that science does not include opinions. Is

that what you were trying to say?-CAt

I specified "individual" opinions, which are based on anecdotal

(i.e., subjective) evidence. In any case, your points are well-taken. At least you know about epistemology. When I

continue to discuss the science, people (see terry0400-40) make comments that I find offensive: "In conclusion i can

only add that we are so privileged to actually have a being of this magnificient magnitude in our prescence and it

is only natural to want to reach out and touch the hem of his garment in sweet communion...."

We could take this into a whole debate over epistemology (how we know what we

know), but actually I don't even think we were giving opinions anyway.

We were describing anecdotal evidence

that seems to contradict the science you were sharing, and we were simply asking how you might explain this

anecdotal evidence in light of the research.-CAt

"Seems to contradict" is the key issue. If people

were more interested in learning about the science, they would find no contradictions--other than in their own

anecdotes. They might then try to scientifically establish why these contradictions exist (in their world, and often

in others).

The fact is that NOT ALL women lose their sex drive when they lose

their cycle, so we were curious how that fits into the science you are trying to share. I don't think that is

expressing opinion so much as trying to understand how the sophisticated study you were sharing fits in with other

observations.-CAt

A woman whose life-long experience with pheromones has conditioned her sexual

response cycle very positively, is not nearly as likely to lose her hormone-dependent sex drive. In fact, due to the

estrogen decline, the effects of testosterone may bee "unmasked" in some cases leading to increased sex drive. But,

as you can probably tell, this is a scientific explanation, not merely an individual opinion based on someone's

anecdotal experience.

And, given the ridicule I've experienced from anonymous members of this Forum, you can

also probably tell why I care less and less about what people think or say--compared to non-anonymous researchers

with whom I regularly correspond. I don't think that is so much an issue of my ego, as it is how I choose to spend

my productive time.

I don't mind spending time responding to comments like yours, but there are too many

people on this Forum who are not the least bit interested in the science of human pheromones.

James V.

Kohl
author/creator: The Scent of Eros

[belgareth]

The there are those of us that

read every scientific post and may ask an occasional question but rarely venture an opinion because we realize we

aren't qualified. Question should always be voiced, even (especially) from us laymen. It helps us better understand

the issues and concepts. Random babble is another thing and I can understand why that would upset any serious

poster.

There are all kinds of people on any public forum. But I think the majority feel they benefit from the

scientific posts, even if we don't feel we know enough to have an opinion.

[Mtnjim]

When I

continue to discuss the science, people (see terry0400-40) make comments that I find offensive: "In conclusion i can

only add that we are so privileged to actually have a being of this magnificient magnitude in our prescence and it

is only natural to want to reach out and touch the hem of his garment in sweet communion...."

James, I

hate to mention this, but, I think Terry was giving you a complement, in his own odd way.

[terry0400-40]

I specified "individual" opinions, which are based on anecdotal (i.e., subjective) evidence.

In any case, your points are well-taken. At least you know about epistemology. When I continue to discuss the

science, people (see terry0400-40) make comments that I find offensive: "In conclusion i can only add that we are so

privileged to actually have a being of this magnificient magnitude in our prescence and it is only natural to want

to reach out and touch the hem of his garment in sweet communion...."



"Seems to contradict" is the key

issue. If people were more interested in learning about the science, they would find no contradictions--other than

in their own anecdotes. They might then try to scientifically establish why these contradictions exist (in their

world, and often in others).



A woman whose life-long experience with pheromones has conditioned her sexual

response cycle very positively, is not nearly as likely to lose her hormone-dependent sex drive. In fact, due to the

estrogen decline, the effects of testosterone may bee "unmasked" in some cases leading to increased sex drive. But,

as you can probably tell, this is a scientific explanation, not merely an individual opinion based on someone's

anecdotal experience.

And, given the ridicule I've experienced from anonymous members of this Forum, you can

also probably tell why I care less and less about what people think or say--compared to non-anonymous researchers

with whom I regularly correspond. I don't think that is so much an issue of my ego, as it is how I choose to spend

my productive time.

I don't mind spending time responding to comments like yours, but there are too many people

on this Forum who are not the least bit interested in the science of human pheromones.

James V.

Kohl
author/creator: The Scent of Eros

PLZ dont be offended by me Big Guy

JV , Im just spraying up a little chalk dust talk, And i am one of those who probably are not so interested in the

hard nosed science of Pheromone research, ha ga ga, But i do enjoy the effects of applying a substance and observing

some of the magic that it can add to a scene.



But you are a good bloke i would say,
And you have your way of expressing your self, I amoungst others probably just reacting a little

as we like to see more of you, and probably un be known to us would like to share closer and some warm rapport with

you.

And i

sure can be a stupid headed little ninny sometimes as all can plainly see,
But in heart wish you well with peace and prosperity. in truth.

[tenaciousBLADE]

First thing's first...

Originally Posted by

Mtnjim:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvkohl

[IMG]http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/image

s/buttons/viewpost.gif[/IMG]
When I continue to discuss the science, people (see terry0400-40) make

comments that I find offensive: "In conclusion i can only add that we are so privileged to actually have a being of

this magnificient magnitude in our prescence and it is only natural to want to reach out and touch the hem of his

garment in sweet communion...."

James, I hate to mention this, but, I think Terry was giving you a

complement, in his own odd way.

I totally agree. In fact I based my own

reply...

Originally Posted by tenaciousBLADE

[IMG]http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/image

s/buttons/viewpost.gif[/IMG]
lol.. nicely and interestingly put

on that

exact notion. So jvkohl... take it easy . I'm pretty sure we all here have the fullest respect for

your input. I know I do... furthermore, I look forward to it everytime

Second...
Science,

at leat such high level science as how pheromones work (and make no mistake of it: I honestly view this type of

science as a very high-level one), is not reachable for anyone and takes a lot of effort to learn & study (you

should know ). Some people cannot afford the time\money or patience to actually go and study that science

thoroughly. You said:

Originally Posted by jvkohl

[IMG]http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/image

s/buttons/viewpost.gif[/IMG]
If people were more interested in learning about the science, they would find

no contradictions--other than in their own anecdotes. They might then try to scientifically establish why these

contradictions exist (in their world, and often in others).

Some peoples' way of learning about science

such as this particular one, is to read and post in forums such as this. I'm sure you can understand that, right?


Including myself in that group of people, i can say, that we do learn alot from your posts... Yet it may

take some of us some time to realize or fully understand what your answers mean exactly; considering that we do not

have the jargon nor the experience with such complexed and sometimes never-before-heared (through our ears at least)

scientific lingo.

I can only speak for myself, however I don't think anyone here had any intension of insulting

you in any way
Granted, sometimes you might sound\seem\feel a little "dismissive and self-righteous"...

because it seems as if you only reply to people with the scentific background... as if the lot of us who hasn't

learned on that specific field has no right to talk with you or earn your respect\experience\answers. But my guess

is that you might think of our replies in the same manner sometimes... and that the fact that we reply in a lingo

that is a bit weak may feel insulting to you. Well please take these next few words not as an insult, but as a

compliment... `coz that is honestly the way I mean them:
Some of us venture our opinions out of curiosity. Science

is not defenent and that is exactly the reason it still exists as a developping proccess... to answer the questions

it raises up, and fill the curiosity of human nature. I can't speak for others yet I'm pretty sure most here would

agree with me (no offense anyone)... I am curious and when I don't understand an answer I keep on asking the

question and try to explain my question a bit more to the detail. The answer wasn't clear to me... up until the

very point you said "Yes". In no way should it be offensieve to you that a simple word was needed.

What I'm

trying to say, jvkohl, is simply (and sincerely):
Don't be offended by our ignorance. Just try to help us

through it instead
`Coz honestly... You're one of the most experienced people on the forums, and as such -

you're one we can learn from; but for that to happen you have to let us. So why threat to quit posting, when you

can just teach us some valuable knowledge about your field insted?

Well, I trully hope I got at

least SOME of the situation right and that my words helped in some way what so ever. `Coz otherwise I've just made

a big fool of myself

JV, people have made some respectable efforts with their words to try and make you

understand that we mean no harm. Please... make that worthwhile and keep on posting your knowledge mate
It's

all for a good edjucative pupose

[terry0400-40]

First thing's first...



I totally agree. In fact I based my own reply...



on that exact notion. So jvkohl... take it easy . I'm pretty sure we all here have the

fullest respect for your input. I know I do... furthermore, I look forward to it everytime



Second...
Science, at leat such high level science as how pheromones work (and make no mistake of it: I honestly

view this type of science as a very high-level one), is not reachable for anyone and takes a lot of effort to learn

& study (you should know ). Some people cannot afford the time\money or patience to actually go and study that

science thoroughly. You said:

Some peoples' way of learning about science such as this particular one, is to

read and post in forums such as this. I'm sure you can understand that, right?
Including myself in that group

of people, i can say, that we do learn alot from your posts... Yet it may take some of us some time to

realize or fully understand what your answers mean exactly; considering that we do not have the jargon nor the

experience with such complexed and sometimes never-before-heared (through our ears at least) scientific lingo.

I

can only speak for myself, however I don't think anyone here had any intension of insulting you in any way


Granted, sometimes you might sound\seem\feel a little "dismissive and self-righteous"... because it seems as

if you only reply to people with the scentific background... as if the lot of us who hasn't learned on that

specific field has no right to talk with you or earn your respect\experience\answers. But my guess is that you

might think of our replies in the same manner sometimes... and that the fact that we reply in a lingo that is a bit

weak may feel insulting to you. Well please take these next few words not as an insult, but as a compliment... `coz

that is honestly the way I mean them:
Some of us venture our opinions out of curiosity. Science is not defenent and

that is exactly the reason it still exists as a developping proccess... to answer the questions it raises up, and

fill the curiosity of human nature. I can't speak for others yet I'm pretty sure most here would agree with me (no

offense anyone)... I am curious and when I don't understand an answer I keep on asking the question and try to

explain my question a bit more to the detail. The answer wasn't clear to me... up until the very point you said

"Yes". In no way should it be offensieve to you that a simple word was needed.

What I'm trying to say,

jvkohl, is simply (and sincerely):
Don't be offended by our ignorance. Just try to help us through it

instead
`Coz honestly... You're one of the most experienced people on the forums, and as such - you're one we

can learn from; but for that to happen you have to let us. So why threat to quit posting, when you can just teach us

some valuable knowledge about your field insted?

Well, I trully hope I got at least SOME of the

situation right and that my words helped in some way what so ever. `Coz otherwise I've just made a big fool of

myself

JV, people have made some respectable efforts with their words to try and make you understand that

we mean no harm. Please... make that worthwhile and keep on posting your knowledge mate
It's all for a good

edjucative pupose

I will second what you have said T Blade, i

wouldn't for one minute think you have made a fool of your self in making your sincere comments it just shows us

that you are made up of fine material. good silk nickers type stuff lol,
Oh excuse my stupid puns once again iv started up, i hope not.

Well in all honesty my lack of understanding

of the man within the scientist has caused me to react in a less than pure intent when discussing the Great One, the

Great well Established Icon @ Love- Scent, And i have exibited an amount of cheeky

banter.

But

when i had discovered to my suprise that the Great One had actually read and commented on my post, that even may

have ruffled some of his tail feathers a tad,
His human reaction

had a really softening and humbling effect upon me where i did really feel compassion within my self for him as a

human being, the one within the scientist.

[jvkohl]

I'm

pretty sure we all here have the fullest respect for your input. I know I do... furthermore, I look forward to it

everytime

Thanks, but you must have missed the thread that caused me to drop out of most general

discussion. Here's what Bruce had to say about my

input.
http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/sh...6&postcount=38

When the anonymous

Bubba was pronounced the superior scientist, I found a different Forum where my "hard" scientific approach was

better accepted than the "soft" social science of others, like Bubba, who contribute here. It's great when people

don't misinterpret my comments and when I don't misinterpret theirs--but as we all know--it happens. I'm glad you

took the time to help explain why it happens.

James V. Kohl
author/creator: The Scent of Eros

[belgareth]

There was a lot more to that

discussion and that one post, taken out of context, is unfair to everybody. If anybody would like to know more,

please read the entire thread: http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/sh...546#post197546

[tenaciousBLADE]

Thanks - I was wondering

how to get there, and I did get to think to myself "ok... but why did he only sned me that one post?"

[jvkohl]

There was a

lot more to that discussion and that one post, taken out of context, is unfair to everybody.

Sorry,

belgareth. I tried to place Bruce's post in the context of "hard" science, like neuroscience, compared to "soft"

science, like social psychology. Different branches of science have different philosophical approaches.



James V. Kohl

[tenaciousBLADE]

Well I've written a long reply, but decided not to post it after all


JVkohl, take it easy. We're all individuals and as far as I know we're not against you, and we appritiate

your cotribute to the forums.
You want to threaten to quit giving your opinions - feel free it's your own choice

(I'd rather you won't but I'll fight for your right to do so).
But by all means - let everybody else say

theirs'. Nobody's here to hurt you
Misunderstandings do happen - but they can be fixed by a simple, polite

explenation. You did such explaning yourself on this thread for example, by saying "Yes". No need to get

offended