I'm not going to debate the VNO
issue, but there are a number of pheromones that the VNO is reported to react to. So the secret ingredient
could be a number of different things.... Estratetraenol, Androstedienone, AndrosTAnone, among others
I'm not going to debate the VNO
issue, but there are a number of pheromones that the VNO is reported to react to. So the secret ingredient
could be a number of different things.... Estratetraenol, Androstedienone, AndrosTAnone, among others
I've posted several times to the "Pheromone Reseach" discussion the actual studies thatOriginally Posted by Sigma
report there is no functional human VNO. There is no debate about its absence in humans, and marketers who claim
that their products work via the VNO are simply doing what marketers do--find a way to get you to spend money on
their product.
JVK
Tell me then, JVK, what causes the "morphine-like states" (or general euphoria) which is known to occur in women
upon exposure to androstadienone?
I suppose it is purely coincidental that it evokes one of the strongest
electrical responses from women subjects (VNO impulse), and is known to be one of the most active pheromones.
There is no doubt a strong correlation between VNO activity and physiological response!! If not the VNO directly
then what exactly??
P.S. Just wait.. You guys haven't seen anything yet!!! (i.e. A1).. Pandora's box
awaits...
Which study showed this? Is your question to me based upon aOriginally Posted by Archetypical Hybrid
(HEC)
statement supported by research--or merely something somehow translated by marketers?
Strongest electricalOriginally Posted by Archetypical
Hybrid (HEC)
responses? Where? How does a VNO impulse influence anything anywhere?
Research has shown that the human VNO response (if any) is not related to the physiologicalOriginally Posted by Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)
response: there's no connection that allows this, or if there is--it has not been discovered. On the other hand, my
published papers detail the entire pathway involved in the physiological response to pheromones--with no involvement
of the non-existent human VNO.
What products are youOriginally Posted by Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)
marketing?
JVK
Originally Posted by jvkohl
Ah Laddy, it's
apt to be a long wait. When a dude tells people they ain't seen nothin yet, with regards to pheromones, he is more
than likley talking out of his ass.
I'm not marketing anything,Still waiting to hear what products you are marketing.
for your information - rather, I'm engaged in some extremely interesting research, in furtherance of that which is
already known (re: the relevance of the human VNO and compounds which are exponentially more active and selective)..
As much as I would like to, I cannot shed much light on the subject due to the sensitive nature of the work I'm
doing, and the NDA which binds me to such..
All I can say at this point is that I have extensive literature in
my possession which proves the VNO to be very active and influential on human behavior - such literature is far more
current than literature you've been citing, and had been funded by a multi-million dollar research project of
international origin (unfortunately I had not been involved). However, based upon structure activity relationships
and receptor theory logic (relative to VNO), androstadienone is comparable to ginger-beer as far as activity.. This
is not conjecture, but currently a proven fact.
Sorry JVK, but you're wrong
Don't worry, I
promise to disclose the information which proves you wrong publicly just as soon as the NDA is no longer
applicable.
I don't talk out of my ass (but that would be a pretty damnhe is
more than likley talking out of his ass.
neat trick!!)
Rather I enjoy sparking controversies (i.e. I'm paradoxically inclined), when fully warranted.
Please read what I wrote, and tell us why I'm wrong. Here's what IOriginally Posted by Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)
wrote:
______________________________________________
"Research has shown that the human VNO response (if
any) is not related to the physiological response: there's no connection that allows this, or if there is--it has
not been discovered."
__________________________________________________ ____
Your attempt to compare --
"extensive" and "more current" "literature" -- to published/cited research findings is what's wrong. It's
precisely the problem with the entire human VNO approach, which can be summed up as "We have information that you
don't have and we're not going to give it to you, so you can't possibly replicate our findings, but we're right
and you're wrong."
I'm citing peer-reviewed research and reviews of research that are available to
everyone. Are you saying Gordon Shepherd is wrong? For example:
Shepherd GM. Behaviour: smells, brains and
hormones. Nature. 2006 Jan 12;439(7073):149-51. "The traditional distinction that common odours are perceived
through the olfactory pathway and pheromones by the vomeronasal pathway is dead."
Winnifred Cutler said she would disclose her ingredients as soon as sheOriginally Posted by Archetypical Hybrid
(HEC)
gets her patent--and that was more than a decade ago. In any case, you won't be proving me wrong, you can only
attempt to show that the top olfactory researchers in the world misinterpreted results that you tell us are "real".
Are you saying Linda Buck is wrong? See also:
Liberles SD, Buck LB. A second class of chemosensory receptors
in the olfactory epithelium. Nature. 2006
"Collectively, these findings indicate that chemical signals that are
likely to function as pheromones are processed by the main olfactory system of mammals. Accordingly, a human
vomeronasal organ is not required." Downloaded July 31, 2006 from
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ature05066.pdf
Co-author (above) Linda
Buck is a 2004 Nobel Laureate (Physiology and/or Medicine).
You say you have far more current literature.
The citations here are from Jan 2006 and July 2006. That makes it hard for me to believe you have anything more
current -- unless it has not been peer-reviewed. And if your information has not been subjected to peer-review, you
can say anything you want--except that your literature can be used to show that anyone else is wrong. It can't even
be used to show you are right--until it has been subjected to peer-review.
JVK
Last edited by jvkohl; 12-13-2006 at 10:02 PM.
calm down man.Originally Posted by jvkohl
again I wasn't
arguing for or against the fact that VNO exists. I'll leave that in the hands of the research types.
I was
just pointing out that a number of pheromones are reported to have an effect on the VNO, so we
shouldn't limit our scope and assume androstedienone is Lacroy's secret ingredient.
I didn't mean to soundOriginally Posted by Sigma
argumentative, and agree that no assumption should be made. This is especially true with regard to the assumption
that there is a human VNO, which leads to the assumption that pheromones influence it. We can be somewhat sure,
however, that a "secret ingredient" completely eliminates any attempt at replicating research that might show the
"secret ingredient" is a human pheromone.
JVK
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